Efficient dust collection under 90"?

[Shannon1066]

Now that I have a planer and jointer I started milling up the wood for the Roubo Workbench.  I quickly came to the decision I must do something different for dust collection.  I am limited in headroom space in my shop.  My ceiling is at 90" and the Clear Vue Cyclones CV1800 is 96" tall.  I thought I would turn to the forum for help.  I'm interested in a very efficient system (I do not want to upgrade later) that will fit under 90".  Do you have any ideas?  

[Tpt life]

How fixed is your location? Are you in rented space and can make no modification? Are you in a basement making a floor recess or ceiling incursion impractical? It seems 6" would be easy to gain if this kind of alteration is feasible.

[Jfitz]

Shannon - it looks like the top 11" of the unit are possible to "hide" up through a ceiling and into the space between the joists.  Is your 90" headroom to the bottom of the ceiling joists?  or to the bottom of the floor above?

[dwacker]

Can you mount a cyclone on the outside of your shop? If that is a possibility that is how I would go.

[Shannon1066]

The shop is in the basement and I own my home.  Putting it up through the ceiling into the floor joists is an interesting idea.  The 90" is to the ceiling of the basement and I would have room to put the top up in the floor joists.  The top of the CV1800 being "buried" in the ceiling...does it need to air circulating around it?  I'm new to all of this and I do not know what that piece is for and if it would be okay up there.  I have not put the sheetrock up on the ceiling yet and so right now it is open but I do plan on finishing it soon.

[Shannon1066]

Mounting it outside of the shop is another interesting idea.  I'm a early morning gal and I would worry about the noise for my neighbors.

[dwacker]

Mounting it outside of the shop is another interesting idea.  I'm a early morning gal and I would worry about the noise for my neighbors.

 

Mine dont complain. You get the benefit of shop space and no filters to clean.

[mikem]

The only real drawback to moving the DC outside, is that you are pulling the climate controlled air of your shop to the outside.  Depending on how constant you run your DC this could noticeably increase your energy bills.

[Bombarde16]

I'm hacking a Rikon 1hp for my basement shop where the ceiling is just barely 7'.

 

 

I'll try to post pix once it's done.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

My JDS-3100CK was purchased for the exact reason of ceiling height.   It includes a remote, auto cleaning filters, and the ability to use disposable bags.

 

http://jdstools.com/3hpcyclone3100-ck2300cfmdustcollector.aspx

[CessnaPilotBarry]

The only real drawback to moving the DC outside, is that you are pulling the climate controlled air of your shop to the outside.  Depending on how constant you run your DC this could noticeably increase your energy bills.

 

And if you've got a furnace exhaust pipe, pulling carbon monoxide and soot back into the room.

[duckkisser]

you can pipe your suction out a window.  just put your dust collector in one of those rubber maid sheds you can buy anywhere. and have your pipes going across the ceiling to your machines.

 

  you might also think of removing wheels on the dust collector to lower the height. if it rests on a bin you might think of buying a smaller bin to shorten it.  for example instead of a 55 gallon drum get a 25 gallong then it will be lots shorter.

[dcustoms]

If you want to use a clear vue just use a different collection drum on the bottom something a little shorter than what is called for and you should be able to make it in 90".  In a basement be careful venting out side with out adequate make up air due to carbon monoxide being drawn down your furnace/water heater vent pipe if applicable.

[ChetlovesMer]

DC stole my thunder.

 

Shannon, you will not be disappointed in the clearvue.
You will have to find a drum that is shorter than a standard 31 gallon trash can.

 

My suggestion is to go to your local big box, measure their 31 gallon metal trash can. Then look through their options for something that is approximately 6" shorter than that 31 gallon trash can. If that option looks big enough to collect enough dust that you don't have to dump it every 10 minutes... for example you wouldn't want to use something as small as a paint can... Anyway, if you find something that fits the bill, buy it and order your ClearVue. I guarentee you'll like it.

 

BTW - take some photos for us when ever you come up with what ever solution you use.

[Shannon1066]

Doesn't the filter come down all the way to the ground?  If I was to find a shorter container, wouldn't that interfere with the filter?  I tried calling Clear Vue but with them being on the East Coast and me on the West, I missed their open hours.

[Kevmc]

I would give clearvue a call and talk about your situation. They will have some good info about how to make it work

[srzsrz]

The assembly manual actually says "If your ceiling is lower than this recommended height, please contact us to discuss your unique situation and possible options." (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/assemblysheets/CV1800MaxAssemblySheet.pdf)

 

It does look like the part connecting the cyclone to the filter (the manual calls it the "transition") is rigid, so if you put the cyclone on a lower trashcan, you'd run into trouble with the filter, as you suggest. But they also sell the cyclone/trashcan/blower setup without the filter, and then they give you a different "transition" for hooking up a standard duct. The idea is presumably that you'd use this to vent to the outside, but I imagine you could rig that up to the filter with a piece of conduit of some sort. But definitely ask them. Aerodynamics is strange and small changes to the design of such things sometimes impact air flow.

[Imaginos]

Doesn't the filter come down all the way to the ground?  If I was to find a shorter container, wouldn't that interfere with the filter?  I tried calling Clear Vue but with them being on the East Coast and me on the West, I missed their open hours.

 

Yes and no. The filters go more or less where you put them, and you can engineer some impressive hijinx. Between the cyclone and the filters, I have 24' of insulated 8" housing duct acting as a muffler on my CV1800. If you wander through the clearvue support forums, particullarly the installation photo album, you'll see that the location of the filters is highly fungible. The cyclone produces a positive pressure that you can pipe off to various locaitons quite easily. There's also two transitions available, the typical 90° transition that you see in most installations that sits right atop the filter stack, and a straight transition that's less common but is better suited to unusual installations. Also keep in mind the filters aren't a single object, it's two filters in a stack, and that opens up a lot of flexibility. As long as there are no leaks, and the air getting to them is roughly balanced, then you can get away with a lot.

 

Take this one for inspiration:

 

http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Cv1400/RickG-in-West-Virginia/

 

This one too:

 

http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Cv1400/Ian+Roth/

 

If you're only trying to make up for 6" or 8", I see no reason a Clearvue won't work. Moreso, in my opinion, it's still the best performance per dollar out there.

 

Be concious of the noise it's going to produce if you're working in a small space. The noise isn't aircraft engine kind of whine, it's a very powerful low rumble which can be carried quite a distance. There's a slow moving but full forum at clearvue devoted to the topic with lots of great ideas, and Bill Pentz has a muffler plan on his website that looked to be a weekend project. Some of those ideas got my garage installation down to the point where in the room right over it, you know it's running but it's not objectionable, and I'd be comfortable running it at midnight without disturbing the neighbors (the tools are another matter).

 

Anyway, good luck and definately keep us posted on how it works out.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

For those who believe you can just stick it outside without serious thought, here are some folks who thought the same:

 

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/1768

 

After this incredibly documented installation, scroll down to comment #91, where he actually turns it on:

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/on/2306171/page/2

 

External dust collectors, as well as outside vented spray booths, need at least the same amount of "conditioned" air returned to the shop space as they remove.  If you drive by a cabinet or auto body shop with an externally vented cyclone or booth, even restaurants with large range hoods, you'll also see large "make up air" devices on the roof.  These units heat or cool external air, before pushing it into the shop, allowing the shop to remain a constant temperature, with no pressure differential.  Make up air systems are expensive to install, and expensive to operate.  Keeping the exhaust inside is much easier and cheaper.

 

It doesn't take a large differential to make doors difficult to open, and a tiny negative pressure will draw potentially deadly flue fumes into the shop.  I can reverse my furnace exhaust with a $20 window fan on medium speed, if I don't open my entry door.

 

If you absolutely need the space, an external closet can make sense.  The closet needs large openings to return the air it removed from the shop, so the closet needs to be insulated and sealed against the elements, and the large openings allow a lot of noise back into the shop.

[dwacker]

For those who believe you can just stick it outside without serious thought, here are some folks who thought the same:

 

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/1768

 

After this incredibly documented installation, scroll down to comment #91, where he actually turns it on:

http://lumberjocks.com/replies/on/2306171/page/2

 

External dust collectors, as well as outside vented spray booths, need at least the same amount of "conditioned" air returned to the shop space as they remove.  If you drive by a cabinet or auto body shop with an externally vented cyclone or booth, even restaurants with large range hoods, you'll also see large "make up air" devices on the roof.  These units heat or cool external air, before pushing it into the shop, allowing the shop to remain a constant temperature, with no pressure differential.  Make up air systems are expensive to install, and expensive to operate.  Keeping the exhaust inside is much easier and cheaper.

 

It doesn't take a large differential to make doors difficult to open, and a tiny negative pressure will draw potentially deadly flue fumes into the shop.  I can reverse my furnace exhaust with a $20 window fan on medium speed, if I don't open my entry door.

 

If you absolutely need the space, an external closet can make sense.  The closet needs large openings to return the air it removed from the shop, so the closet needs to be insulated and sealed against the elements, and the large openings allow a lot of noise back into the shop.

It's not as big of deal as one would think and most cabinet shop dont have air make up units for dc or spray booths. My warehouse uses a 9800 com bag house with no issues what so ever. System was pro installed and inspected by county and puget sound energy. Furnace is gas. My shop uses 3 hp cyclone again with no issues. Heat is electric running collector increases power bill $25 every two months running 6 hours a day 5 days a week in winter due to heat loss. Summer no loss no ac.

[Imaginos]

It's not as big of deal as one would think and most cabinet shop dont have air make up units for dc or spray booths. My warehouse uses a 9800 com bag house with no issues what so ever. System was pro installed and inspected by county and puget sound energy. Furnace is gas. My shop uses 3 hp cyclone again with no issues. Heat is electric running collector increases power bill $25 every two months running 6 hours a day 5 days a week in winter due to heat loss. Summer no loss no ac.

 

I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison. There's numerous example out there about how the lack of make up air does impact small and home shops. Tribal knowledge though it may be, it's not like people are imagining these things when they see doors slam shut and things start to rattle loose. It comes down to how big is the shop, and how leaky is it (from the air's point of view). Consider my shop, 20' x 20' with 9' ceilings, totaling 3900 cubic feet, minus the volume taken up by stuff inside it. A CV1800 can move up to 1400 cubic feet a minute at the inlet, and probably around 700 cfm at the tools. There's a real possibility that it can change out the air in the shop in 4-5 minutes. Were everything perfectly sealed, it could well be a non-trivial draft at the enterance, and if there's a door in the way, it may well have to hold back several hundred pounds of differential air pressure. Your shops may well have more than enough volume and air sources to where it is a non issue, but that doesn't make it universally true. It's one of those things that you'll never really know until you've tried it. We do know, rather rigorously, that there's very little harm having filters inside, even if the cyclone and dust bin are outside. Assuming that one wall penetration for the suction connection is no less objectionable than one more for a return, if you're going to have filters at all I see no reason to not have them in the shop. Or, if the noise isn't objectionable to begin with, have the whole stack in the shop, which I suspect is by far the most common arrangement for home users. Now, if you intend to vent the discharge to the atmosphere without filters, that's different, but for Shannon, I believe doing the whole thing inside the shop will be more than adequate.

[dwacker]

I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison. There's numerous example out there about how the lack of make up air does impact small and home shops. Tribal knowledge though it may be, it's not like people are imagining these things when they see doors slam shut and things start to rattle loose. It comes down to how big is the shop, and how leaky is it (from the air's point of view). Consider my shop, 20' x 20' with 9' ceilings, totaling 3900 cubic feet, minus the volume taken up by stuff inside it. A CV1800 can move up to 1400 cubic feet a minute at the inlet, and probably around 700 cfm at the tools. There's a real possibility that it can change out the air in the shop in 4-5 minutes. Were everything perfectly sealed, it could well be a non-trivial draft at the enterance, and if there's a door in the way, it may well have to hold back several hundred pounds of differential air pressure. Your shops may well have more than enough volume and air sources to where it is a non issue, but that doesn't make it universally true. It's one of those things that you'll never really know until you've tried it. We do know, rather rigorously, that there's very little harm having filters inside, even if the cyclone and dust bin are outside. Assuming that one wall penetration for the suction connection is no less objectionable than one more for a return, if you're going to have filters at all I see no reason to not have them in the shop. Or, if the noise isn't objectionable to begin with, have the whole stack in the shop, which I suspect is by far the most common arrangement for home users. Now, if you intend to vent the discharge to the atmosphere without filters, that's different, but for Shannon, I believe doing the whole thing inside the shop will be more than adequate.

The most your going to get out of a 4" machine duct is about 400cfm running one blast gate intermittently like a home owner would not pull a negative pressure. But all is meaningless if the op is going to go with internal mounted dc unit.

[Vic]

Besides the combustion appliance possible dangers, you would also put you house under negative pressure, if you vent the DC to the outside.  This would cause a much greater heat loss when the DC was running.  Messing with house pressures is not a good thing to do, unless you know what you're doing and making things better.

[Shannon1066]

It makes me a bit worried to alter the design of the dc and I do not like the idea of venting to the outside, given all the potential issues.  The May issue of Wood magazine did a comparison of different dc systems.   Clearvue was not looked at but the Oneida V-System Three Thousand [the numbers on my keyboard are not working] came out on top.  This system is short enough to fit in my basement without any alterations.  Has anyone had any experience with this system?  I wonder why Clearvue was not in the comparison?

[CessnaPilotBarry]

I don't think that's an apples to apples comparison. There's numerous example out there about how the lack of make up air does impact small and home shops. Tribal knowledge though it may be, it's not like people are imagining these things when they see doors slam shut and things start to rattle loose. It comes down to how big is the shop, and how leaky is it (from the air's point of view).

 

In my experience, the devil is in the details.

 

In my 24 x 36 shop with 92" ceilings, I can predictably and repeatably backdraft my oil furnace enough with a $20 drug store box fan to set off my CO detector if I don't open the stairway door.  The fan is set into a foam board plug I temporally insert into a double door while I spray water based finishes.  If I don't chock the upstairs door, the fan will close it.  With the fan plug in place, the only sources of air to the shop are a 4" clothes dryer vent, the upstairs door, and the 8" flue pipe.  The ceiling and the only wood framed wall are well insulated with fiberglass batting.  This is with a cheesy little plastic bladed 20" box fan, not a powerful air mover.

 

On the other hand...    My main lumber dealer, who is also a flooring and molding mill, has what has to be a 100HP outdoor cyclone, and no makeup air handler, in a building that could easily hold a couple of regional jets.  The system has what has to be a 2 foot trunk line.   His unheated and unairconditioned building has so much internal volume, and is a bit leaky, so it's no problem at all.  

 

It's not that it can't or shouldn't be done, just do all the math and dot all the i's...   If I didn't have the CO detector, I could have put myself into an impaired state and injured myself, or worse...