rchafin Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Hello Everyone, My name is Raymond and I am new to the forum. I have been watching with anticipation for over a year now, and am finally about to start my Roubo build. I picked up enough 8/4 white oak yesterday for everything but the leg vise, and I plan on starting to mill to size this afternoon. This is going to be a big/stretch project for me, and I have several design decisions that are still unanswered. I was hoping the board can provide some direction. Here we go: Like many Im sure, I watch the folks that completed the French Oak Roubo project in awe, and the results are gorgeous. I really like the through tenon version joint to the top, compared to the stub tenon. What are the general thoughts of pros vs cons on this choice? It seems like the major change would be that it would cause you to lean toward dog holes, as opposed to the square dogs. Any other tradeoffs?? Any obvious issues in installing a criss-cross leg vise on a through tenon leg? Seems like this will be straightforward, but I don't know what I don't know.... I know the plans call for a 4" top, but I think I my wood can mill square at 5". I hate to waste an inch of each board....any reason not to build the top 5" I realize this will affect the endcab joinery, and the installation of the tail vise, but given that the measurements are from the top of the bench in the plans I suspect is manageable. Any additional concerns? Thats all I have for now, but I look forward to continued discussion as I go through this build. Cheers, Raymond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexPeel Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 1. Did the square dogs and I love them. Through tenon should be fine with either type of dog holes but you would definitely need to modify the position of one of the holes. You would also need to modify the position of the leg completely on the wagon vise side of the bench. The current plans call for the wagon vise clearance to go up to the edge of the leg, I dont think that would work with a through tenon as it would need some space so the tenon was not on the edge of a hole. You could also lengthen the bench on that side by several inches to pull the vise away from the leg. I don't think that through tenons are really going to help with top stability any more then the original plans. I am sure it would look cooler, but it would be more work. I do think it's doable but as I outlined you will need to modify parts of the plans to suit regardless of the doghole style. If you go down this route I would advise you to make modifications to the sketchup plans to get everything setup the way you want and be careful with any measurements to not get them confused with the original plans while you are watching the videos and following along. 2. I installed criss-cross and you should be fine on the through tenon. What you have to worry about is the front rail to the leg tenon. I advise you to get the sketchup drawings that were done in the criss-cross thread. They explain the problem thoroughly. You will still need to put the criss-cross on while the leg is completely unattached but that should't be any more of an issue then the original plans. 3. 5" top should be fine but you will need to back drill the underside of the holdfast holes with a larger hole because the holdfasts will not work with that thick of a bench. Also I would not be overly optimistic about maximizing bench thickness. I am sure you will find at least some of that overage will get eaten up in the process of making and flattening your bench top. Don't worry about it however as the bench top can be as thick as you want it to be and not just on inch increments, a 4 and 45/64" top would work too . Just make sure you modify any distances in the plans which are based off the 4" top. You also should consider the extra inch in the overall height of the bench and change the leg length if you don't want it to be 36" high bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted September 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Thanks for the response. I looked at the criss cross post, and see where other folks have already figured out most of the challenges. I'll get the sketchup file and dig in this evening. The item around the right front leg begs a question. The left front leg is placed so that it fits between two of the dog holes. It certainly seems like that could have been an option on the right front leg as well, and would have simplified the dog hole placement. So I'm curious why its located where it is....certainly there's a reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 The biggest argument I can see against ( or for ) 5" of white oak top is that it will be one heavy sucker! Even if you make a split top, each slab could weigh upwards of 250 pounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 I was going to chime in on 5" thick top causing problems with dog holding. You don't get enough angle on the leg to get the grab you'll want. Boring out the underside will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Milled up all the top boards today....glue up tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Hey Byrdie, Could you please explain a little more about your concern in not getting "enough angle on the leg to get the hold you want?" I don't understand the problem, or how boring out underneath would help. Thanks, Raymond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Bench dogs hold with a friction fit. If the hole that the leg of the dog goes through is too long the angle is not acute enough for the wedging action to take place. By boring a larger diameter hole around the bottom of the dog hole you effectively shorten the length of the hole through which the leg of the dog goes and therefore increase the angle that it can be wedged at. Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi Ramond. I just completed my Roubo recently and I'm loving it. The change (from the guild plans) for the crisscross really only involves the overall height of the leg screw placement and the position of the bolt used for knockdown hardware. To relocate the bolt far enough behind the mortise for the crisscross, the front rail is made deeper to give you enough room to get behind the mortise. Be sure to download and read all of the plans and installation documents from Benchcrafted as Jameel does a very good job of explaining this change. As for the 5" top, I say do it. As has been mentioned previously, be aware of measurements that are using reference points that may be affected by the thickness of your top. Yes, a 5" top will be heavier, but seriously.. That is one of the primary benefits of a large bench of any design. MASS! By the way, bench dogs will be fine in a 5" top (adjust your dog sizes and template accordingly), but hold fasts may have a tougher time gripping. I think there was some misunderstanding of terminology in previous posts. When a hold fast is knocked into it's holding position, it cocks itself at an angle in the hole in your bench top. If there is too much thickness, it doesn't bind enough and it may slip. The trick mentioned earlier is to enlarge the bottom of the hold fast hole to a depth of around an inch. This effectively makes your hold fast hole 4" deep. I know I'm late to the party here and I'm sure you have figured all of this out by now, but I wanted to wish you good luck and offer any advice that I can. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted October 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 Hello All, I very much appreciate the advice. I've progressed my bench slower than expected, as several work/life things have consumed my weekends. None the less I just finished the dovetails and final glue p of the front laminate piece. Dovetails were fun, and although not perfect, not horrible for my first attempt at hand cutting a joint that size. The top ended up about 4 15/16" at this point. As I unpacked the tail vise hardware, I realized that I have the wrong screws for the tail vise, so I sent a note to bencrafted hoping to get a replacement screw packet. I also realized that installing the tail vise will be a bit more complicated. The nut block is designed for a nut block that is 4" thick, meaning the guide rails will need to be recessed nearly 1 1/4", and the path for the nut block cleared appropriately where it approaches the leg. I'm going to hold off on the tail vise until I get the correct screw packet, but will shift to the base construction. Again, I appreciate the help, and any addition al insight anyone might have on the thicker top. Cheers Raymond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted January 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hello Everyone, It's been a long time since my first post...a little over three months have passed. But yesterday, I finally finished my roubo. The top ended up being just under 5" thick. It's "mostly" flat, but still needs a pass with the jointer to finish off. I decided to round over the leg vise chop, and just taper the sides. Based on the density of White Oak, the whole bench plus hardware weighs over 375 lbs. All is all this was the hardest project I have tackled, and Im grateful for the few replies to my original posts, as welll as the inscruction in the Guild. This was an awesome project, and I can't wait to put this thing to work this weekend. Cheers, Raymond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Sweet looking bench! What finish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted January 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I have not finished it yet. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChetlovesMer Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Great job, it looks awesome. I bet she's a heavy SOB. How think did that top end up being? Looks like you got close to 5". The dovetail looks outstanding. I'm a huge BC Roubo convert. I think they look awesome and work even better. Congrats on a great job on this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchafin Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 The thickness is right at 4-7/8" thick. I still need to do a little flattening, but for the most part its pretty close to it final dimension. Milling out for the tail vise was wild, as I removed what seemed like a ton of material to create a deep enough mortise for the vise hardware to be properly referenced from the bench top. The dogs work just fine in the thicker top, and I didn't see the need to elongate them in any way...so they are the stock dimension. I did bore out the holdfast holes from under the bench. The dovetail fits great on the sides, but there is a 1/32" gap at the base of the dovetail and the top of the tail. For my first time hand cutting any joint of this type, Im thrilled with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexPeel Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Congrats on the bench! If you still have not finished it I would try Watco danish oil as discussed in the finishing thread. Worked great, and was a simple couple hour application. The bench looks a whole lot better once finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexPeel Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 So to touch on what Byrdie said: Bench dogs hold with a friction fit. If the hole that the leg of the dog goes through is too long the angle is not acute enough for the wedging action to take place. By boring a larger diameter hole around the bottom of the dog hole you effectively shorten the length of the hole through which the leg of the dog goes and therefore increase the angle that it can be wedged at. Make sense? Just want to clarify that square bench dogs are not affected by the depth of the top. You may need to make the dog a tad bit longer, but you do not need to back drill the square dog holes. The square dogs are held in place with a wooden "spring". If you are using round dog holes I would think that they dont need to be 4" unless you are trying to use them as hold fast holes as well. However I don't really know as I put square dogs on mine. Only the hold fast holes really need to be around 4" for effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 So to touch on what Byrdie said: Just want to clarify that square bench dogs are not affected by the depth of the top. You may need to make the dog a tad bit longer, but you do not need to back drill the square dog holes. The square dogs are held in place with a wooden "spring". If you are using round dog holes I would think that they dont need to be 4" unless you are trying to use them as hold fast holes as well. However I don't really know as I put square dogs on mine. Only the hold fast holes really need to be around 4" for effectiveness. Correct. I sometimes get a little confused by nomenclature and what I was thinking of was holdfasts, not dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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