Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I have a project in which I am going to be using bubinga veneer(no backing) for a watch case. I have never veneered anything, and a vacuum press is not a possibility since I can't afford a vacuum pump at the moment. I've seen a couple of videos on veneering and the one that interests me the most is yellow glue on each piece, letting it dry and then ironing on the veneer. Is this a good method? I don't want something peeling off in a couple of years. Is there an advantage to this method? Also, I'm using 1/16" veneer, I've read that sometimes the glue will seep through the wood, would this ruin the finish I will put on later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rozaieski Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yellow glue is a cross linking polymer, so once it's dry, it cannot be reactivated. So I would be a bit concerned with this method. I can't see how it could be a permanent, long term bond if the glue were first allowed to completely cure before ironing. Maybe it's not supposed to be completely cured? I think a piece as small as you are describing is tailor made for hammer veneering with hot hide glue. It's super easy to do, works great on small pieces, and requires no clamps, bags, pumps or other special equipment (well, you need a veneer hammer, but that's really easy to make yourself). Once the veneered piece is dry, a card scraper takes care of the glue on the surface. Anything missed by the card scraper is OK too because hide glue won't affect a finish like yellow glue will. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yellow glue is a cross linking polymer, so once it's dry, it cannot be reactivated. So I would be a bit concerned with this method. I can't see how it could be a permanent, long term bond if the glue were first allowed to completely cure before ironing. Maybe it's not supposed to be completely cured? I think a piece as small as you are describing is tailor made for hammer veneering with hot hide glue. It's super easy to do, works great on small pieces, and requires no clamps, bags, pumps or other special equipment (well, you need a veneer hammer, but that's really easy to make yourself). Once the veneered piece is dry, a card scraper takes care of the glue on the surface. Anything missed by the card scraper is OK too because hide glue won't affect a finish like yellow glue will. Yeah, I also was watching some videos on the hide glue, just seemed like a more labor intensive way of veneering, however I want a quality finished product that won't come off. I think I'm going to go with this method. Now just learning the right way to apply. Any suggestions on the type of hide glue to use? A quick search on woodcraft has 2 different types, the one you mix with water and heat, and a titebond product which seemed to have good reviews that you don't need to melt. As for the veneer hammer, looks very simple to make, what would you use for the actual part that rubs against the wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 With a piece that small you can get away with just pva and clamps. Officially with veneer you should be using a rigid glue but with something so small I wouldn't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> for a watch case When you saw 'watch case' is this a case for a single watch or one those watch collection display cases holding a dozen or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> for a watch case When you saw 'watch case' is this a case for a single watch or one those watch collection display cases holding a dozen or two? Ahh I should have been more informative...it is a case that will hold 10 watches, 14" x 8" x 3 1/2" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Ahh I should have been more informative...it is a case that will hold 10 watches, 14" x 8" x 3 1/2" What is your substrate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I was going to use 3/4 BB ply Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I was going to use 3/4 BB ply Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Your fine with pva and clamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rozaieski Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yeah, I also was watching some videos on the hide glue, just seemed like a more labor intensive way of veneering, however I want a quality finished product that won't come off. I think I'm going to go with this method. Now just learning the right way to apply. Any suggestions on the type of hide glue to use? A quick search on woodcraft has 2 different types, the one you mix with water and heat, and a titebond product which seemed to have good reviews that you don't need to melt. As for the veneer hammer, looks very simple to make, what would you use for the actual part that rubs against the wood? You want 192 gram strength. Heat it in a double boiler. An easy setup is a glass jelly jar in a pot of hot water. The larger the pot, the easier it will be to control the temperature and the longer it will hold its temperature. Here's a quick video I did on preparing hot hide glue. You need to use hot for hammer veneering. Liquid will work with clamps and cauls only. For the hammer, I used brass for the "squeegee". But any hard wood or even ultra high molecular weight plastic (i.e. Plastic cutting board) will work too. http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2013/02/quick-tip-13-dont-fear-the-hide-glue/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Thank you so much! You're the man, I was wondering what I could use instead of ruining some pots haha perfect thanks again. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> Also, I'm using 1/16" veneer, I've read that sometimes the glue will seep through the wood, would this ruin the finish I will put on later? Didn't pick-up on this the first read... Really 1/16" is really on the thin side... You don't have a lot of margin for error.. So you're going to veneer a sheet of 14x8? You know to leave an inch over to allow for cutting, right... If 14x8 is your final, then 15x9 is your substrate and 16x10 is your veneer, right??? If you're going old-school, then HHG is certainly an very good option... Now, it's a tried and true method used for centuries. But if you've never used HHG, you need to practice on something else first... HHG has many desirable properties for an adhesive, but for the first time user, the almost instant tack-time can take you by surprise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I thought 1/16" was on the thick side for veneer! Haha but yeah I definitely will be doing some test pieces before I attempt it on the actual product. I actually got a good deal (I think) on the Bubinga veneer, 7 sheets 11"wide by 24" in length with some really nice figure. So I think I should have plenty to play around with. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> I thought 1/16" was on the thick side for veneer! Yea, it's on the thick-side for store-bought, not if you saw it yourself... You usually re-saw to 1/8 heavy and run it through the drum sander to 3/32 heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Oh ok got ya, I bought it off eBay for $25, don't think I'll need to do much sanding as it is already pretty smooth. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I thought 1/16" was on the thick side for veneer! Haha but yeah I definitely will be doing some test pieces before I attempt it on the actual product. I actually got a good deal (I think) on the Bubinga veneer, 7 sheets 11"wide by 24" in length with some really nice figure. So I think I should have plenty to play around with. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk It is it actually really thick for veneer 1/40 is standard veneer thickness. Hide glue is a novel idea for restoration and things of that nature but modern glues are much better. Although pva is not best for veneer it will work fin your your tiny project. DAP resin is another if you want to go throughout the hassle of mixing a glue and would be the the best much better than hide glue or Pva. If you have a nice bubinga with a waterfall figure its best mask off the face in attempt to hold back bleeding. You will get bleeding with any glue with waterfall bubinga, just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm worried about bleeding through with other glues and not being able to accept a finish, knowing how hide doesn't effect the finish I think I'm still going to use that. However I think I might pick up the dap and see how that works. I bought a sample pack of veneer about a year and a half ago, just had no projects that fit the small samples, so I might just do some tests on different types of glues. So since I had the yellow glue and an iron, I gave that a shot, I just veneered my table saw push stick! I think it came out ok, tried to peel it back with no success, but I think I'll keep that method to shop projects. Some one is buying the watch case, so I really want something that will last a long time. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> Hide glue is a novel idea for restoration and things of that nature but modern glues are much better Yea, HHG takes a finish which is why many (including myself) use it... I know PVAs would be a mistake... I didn't know that the UFs took finish?? I've used Unibond, but not DAP and never had much bleed-through to test... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I wouldn't do the iron on thing it just plain doesn't work well that's been proven time and time again. With the resin glue you won't get the bleed though like you will with the white or yellow glues. The advantage of hide is its ability to take stain to a degree but it's not a cure all. Sizing your veneer is the real answer to issue of bleed through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 ==> With the resin glue you won't get the bleed though like you will with the white or yellow glues. I hadn't thought of that, thanks. ==> Sizing your veneer is the real answer to issue of bleed through. Ahhhh, yea... You know, I think i read that in Keil's book, but it passed over me completely... Thanks again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 One thought... If you go with a UF, be really careful about things like drips, tool clean-up, etc... I haven't used DAP, but Unibond gets tacky/hard pretty fast and can leave you with an unholey mess if you don't address spills/stray adhesive right away... I suspect DAP behaves in a similar manor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 What exactly do you mean by sizing your veneer? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I think it might come down to your confidence level aswel' I remember the first time I used hide glue I was worried about getting all the ingredients right I was afraid my piece would all fall apart !! But as you can see in bobs video there really isn't anything to be scared of it's really forgiving and I think you can buy hide glue pre mixed and all you have to do is heat it in the bottle. Most glues today will stick the veneer to the substrate you just have to remember to have everything prepared e.g. Glue, clamps, cauls etc etc. You have to consider your finish aswel, as you said will there be bleeding which will affect your finish or will an ingredient in the finish affect the glue. For example you can use a contact cement the type you apply to both surfaces and let dry and then roll the veneer on to your ply ( rolling is better than pressing or rubbing so you work out the bubbles and you don't burnish the surface ) this method is quick and easy but does require some practice just to prepare you for any surprises. some types of finish such as lacquer can deactivate or soften the glue if they penetrate the veneer...... are you lining the inside of your case with veneer aswel ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuhn315 Posted December 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I'm not sure if I'll be applying the veneer inside, customer hasnt gotten back to me on if he wants felt on the inside or not. I think I'm gonna buy the hide glue as well as the titebond which also says won't effect the finish. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 If you apply a veneer on the outside you're going to have to apply one on the inside or the pieces will bow. It doesn't have to be the same species if you're covering it with felt but it will have to be a similar thickness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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