sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm working on some different prototypes of cabinets for my kitchen. The best video I could find was a 2008 New Yankee workshop and some other random stuff on Youtube. I've attached a sketchup screenshot of how I built my first one. It has a 3/4 dado along the back about 3/8" in from the back. A friend of mine says that won't work and that I should rabbet the sides to recess the back flush. Any pointers from someone who has already done this? Fyi.. I could park a car on the prototype, it's made of all 3/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Is the back meant to go against the wall? Maybe your friend meant that the back wouldn't make a good attachment point being offset from the wall like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I only held it back from the wall for strength. I think most I see are rabbeted along the back and the back panel drops in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcustoms Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I use 1/2inch ply back set in a rabbit 9/16 deep... the extra 1/16th makes it so the sides touch the wall and give a nice tight fit for install... everything is made of 3/4" ply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Your friend is right and wrong. First you don't need 3/4 backs 1/2" is fine. Rabbet or dado is fine it's all about the nailer. With the dado your nailer is hidden behind back. With the the rabbet it's in the cabinet. Now the but. The purpose of thick backs is you don't need nailers so generally your going to use rabbets with 1/2" backs. The craftsmanship issue I see is the face frame not being dadoed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcustoms Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 While I concede to your skills and experience, Dadoing the face frame, while strong isn't necessary, using 3/4 inch ply sides gives you a good glue surface for that face frame. just a different way of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I was going to biscuit the face frames to the carcass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 While I concede to your skills and experience, Dadoing the face frame, while strong isn't necessary, using 3/4 inch ply sides gives you a good glue surface for that face frame. just a different way of doing things. This is where most fail KCMA with their 30" two door box testing. The deck pops and sags. But there are other advantages to the build process from an efficiency perspective outside the scope of the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I was going to biscuit the face frames to the carcass. Biscuits are better than nothing. But actually make your build more difficult. Build your box to your frame not your frame to your box. You are designing your kitchen around your face frames doors and drawers the boxes are the least of your worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Great discussion this is exactly what I was looking for. What works, what doesn't.. and why. Particle Boar could you elaborate on the process of building out from the face frames? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Is this what you meant by "would fail kcma"? To test the ability of doors, hinges, and means of attachment to withstand loading, 65 pounds of weight is applied on the door. The weighted door is slowly operated for 10 cycles from 90 degrees open to 20 degrees open and returned to the 90 degree position. The door must remain weighted for 10 minutes, after which the door and hinges must show no visible signs of damage, and connections between cabinet-and-hinge and door-and-hinge must show no sign of looseness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Are pocket screws to hold the face on considered a better option than a dado? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Is this what you meant by "would fail kcma"? To test the ability of doors, hinges, and means of attachment to withstand loading, 65 pounds of weight is applied on the door. The weighted door is slowly operated for 10 cycles from 90 degrees open to 20 degrees open and returned to the 90 degree position. The door must remain weighted for 10 minutes, after which the door and hinges must show no visible signs of damage, and connections between cabinet-and-hinge and door-and-hinge must show no sign of looseness. No that is the door test KCMA does a 600lb load test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I see. Does KCMA have any reference drawings for cabinet builds? This is the underlying problem for me... I cannot find any updated reading material or drawings with enough detail. PB would you be interested in sharing a photo or two of some example construction? Shop drawings etc.. I've found everything from using Kreg screws ( seems to be the most popular ) to using finish nails to biscuits for attaching the face frames. Is a dado'd face frame held on with just glue or is there other fastener that gets used along with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Are pocket screws to hold the face on considered a better option than a dado? No first any fasteners reduce the quality standard below AWI premium, not that it really it matters unless your building to AWI spec. Your still building backwards frame to cabinet. Your frame really acts as an assembly jig for your box. You would only use pocket holes on the side panels, you wouldn't want to see them under or in the cabinets. The dado straightens your panels and squares the front of your box. When the glue joint of the deck fails and it will down the road the dado secures the weight of the deck. If you've ever been involved in the refacing side of the industry you've seen blown out decks especially over sinks and coffee makers anyplace where there is steam on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 There's a series by Mrbigerock on YouTube on his kitchen build, using primarily Festool and Kreg. I have no idea if it meets any kind of standard or best practice, but they look great and seem to be pretty well designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I see. Does KCMA have any reference drawings for cabinet builds? This is the underlying problem for me... I cannot find any updated reading material or drawings with enough detail. PB would you be interested in sharing a photo or two of some example construction? Shop drawings etc.. I've found everything from using Kreg screws ( seems to be the most popular ) to using finish nails to biscuits for attaching the face frames. Is a dado'd face frame held on with just glue or is there other fastener that gets used along with it? No they do not they provide certification services. Dado face frames are held on with just glue. Yes I can do up some drawings Im having a new server installed right now but will get you some examples after the 2020 install and ecab is back on the server. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwalter5110 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I am actually really interested in seeing how a pro like PB builds his cabinet as well. Can't wait to see the pics or drawings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm an IT guy if you need help with that server:) only fair for sharing your knowledge. Cochese I'll check out that channel. Kris Reynolds also has a Youtube channel that has been helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 So can you give me the run down on how to build out from the face frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Biscuits are better than nothing. But actually make your build more difficult. Build your box to your frame not your frame to your box. You are designing your kitchen around your face frames doors and drawers the boxes are the least of your worries. My cousin used to have a cabinet shop. I asked him the #1 mistake people make and he said "building the boxes first. If you get the frame right everything else is just building a box" It seemed unintuitive to me at first (kind of like installing trim before the sheetrock) but now it makes sense to me. I bet a lot of hobby guys make that mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 My cousin used to have a cabinet shop. I asked him the #1 mistake people make and he said "building the boxes first. If you get the frame right everything else is just building a box" It seemed unintuitive to me at first (kind of like installing trim before the sheetrock) but now it makes sense to me. I bet a lot of hobby guys make that mistake. Yup. That is how it is "supposed" to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bienlein Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I only use 1/4" x 1/4" dados when building my cabinets. Thats how my father did them also. You don't even need a clamp to assemble them either. This shows the joinery used on the sheet goods for the cabinet. This shows the dados in the face frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunadmin Posted January 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 1. Mill stock for stiles 2. Cut 3/8 x 3/4 dado for carcass in stile 3. Assemble Face frames with 1 of the 3 methods: 1. Mortise and tenon 2. Cope and Stick 3. Kreg Screws 4. Then what? Do you glue and clamp the sides of the carcass to the face frame and built out from the face frame? What about the bottom of the cabinet? Does the bottom rail on the face frame get a dado also for the bottom of the cabinet to set in? I've attached a face frame drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 First time I did a face frame construction, I did just that, made the box first. I attached the fame frame with biscuits, and it was a pain in the butt to line everything up. I thought I had it perfect, but that didn't turn out so well. I was close enough to be able to persuade fit with pressure (not an extraordinary amount, but enough), and I couldn't imagine this method in a production shop. It took me about as much time to just put the face frame on, as it did to construct the box and face frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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