monkey Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hi All, I'm relatively a newbie in wood working and a couple of years ago I made a simple little side cabinet (learning along the way). In the process I bought a Makita 5" (125mm) Random Orbital Sander. It was their largest of the 5" range, is powered from the wall and has variable speed control and dust extraction (My wife's Dyson makes a great dust collector...). I know finishing is a task of patience, but I really feel it's going a lot slower than it should. Does the following make sense: I'm sanding a piece of 400x400x19mm (about 16"x16"x3/4") plywood made from hoop pine veneers. I'm using Bosch sand papers (read a recent review saying they're good and Norton / Klingspore is not available in Australia) and after 30 minutes of sanding with a 40 grit on max speed, the surface is still not smooth (well, 40 grit smooth). Material removal wise I thought about using my electric hand planer (Dewalt) to take off 0.1mm (I'm not sure what the appropriate measurement is in US units, in inches it's 1/250th of an inch). However, then after the hand planer I would need to remove any planing marks and as minute as they are, I felt it would be easier to just use a coarse sand paper. I can get the surface to a consistent texture after about 45 minutes of sanding (just one face). After that, I move to 80 grit for about 10 minutes, 120 Grit for about 10 minutes and then 180 for about 5 minutes. The higher grits finish fine but doing the initial smoothing (removing that rough plywood finish where there are uneven long grain lines) is taking forever. I certainly don't run any risk of wearing through a veneer if I walked away and had a drink leaving the sander on (I don't do that, speaking figuratively). I can't work out what's going on. Am I expecting too much? I'm moving the sander very slowly, applying a light amount of weight (just resting my arm on it but not my body weight). I wouldn't have expected the Makita sander to be a poor quality one, I mean it's no Festool but there are certainly a lot of cheaper ones on the market. I would really appreciate any feedback and tips. I don't have many other tools for finishing (no thicknessing tools). I bought the random orbital hoping to use it as one that does OK material removal performance and good finish performance. I later bought a hand held electric planer but I haven't been happy with it (I just need time to set it up properly, out of the box it cut a nice V shape as the blades were not level and the tool used to level the blades isn't square, it's also gone back under warranty for other issues). Cheers, Gary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Are you trying to flatten an uneven surface using the RO? If so, that is a task the sander is not really designed to do. But if it's cabinet grade plywood, it should be pretty darn flat to begin with, and should not require any other work than a fine sanding (by hand) with a high grit to get ready for finish Also, a 40 grit sand paper should eat though the thin veneer of a hardwood ply in nano seconds! Not sure what's going on if you can leave the sander on and walk away without any fear of sanding through! Are you sanding construction grade plywood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks for the reply, I'm not sure how to categorize the surface. The surface is flat but along the board has lines about half the thickness of a fingernail and about as deep running along the grain that I wanted to smooth over. The surface is a C Grade veneer (not sure if it's the same term in the US, here it means it's an even surface that might will have exposed knots and a few minor cracks filled). It is structural pine plywood, but I wouldn't have expected it to be indesctructable. I also have an A grade marine ply hardwood sheet that the sander barely marks (I don't know what species). Previously I've used the electric planer to smooth the existing surface texture by removing a small amount and then cleaned up the planing marks with the sander, which was still very laborious. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Crawford Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Maybe I'm not understanding but if the sander has a port to which the Dyson is attached it is possible that the suction is to strong and preventing the sander from working properly. I must turn the vacuum down on my Festool dust collector when I use the ROS otherwise it does not do much at all but complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 After all that sanding (45 mins at 40 grit) I'm surprised you even have solid wood left. I'll +1 Tom's suggestion to run it without the vac attached to set a baseline for expected performance. I also had to adjust (reduce) the suction from my vac when using my ROS, and it has made a world of difference in performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Any chance there is finish on the ply and that your paper is loaded with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I've tested with partial suction on the vacuum and no suction (using dust collection bag that came with sander). I thought the no and partial suction saw an improvement on a test piece but when I went back to my actual panel, I didn't see any improvement. The panel has sections that have sanded well and some sections that haven't. I ran out of time last night but I'll take some photos tonight of the finish at 40 grit. No finish on the board and the paper is not clogged at all with dust (it comes off clean). I have a hardwood marine ply that the sander at 40 grit doesn't even mark. I reckon I could leave it on there for an hour without any wear. We have a decent wood working shop in our city that stocks Festool and Bosch ROS, I might take some test pieces to them and see if they'll demo the two on the board and see what difference there is. I'll follow up with a picture and more details. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would blame the paper not the sander. Cheap paper like the crap lowes sells wont sand the dead skin off my feet. Good paper is worth the money. 99% of festoons success is the paper not the sander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would blame the paper not the sander. Cheap paper like the crap lowes sells wont sand the dead skin off my feet. Good paper is worth the money. 99% of festoons success is the paper not the sander. Never thought of that. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I would blame the paper not the sander. Cheap paper like the crap lowes sells wont sand the dead skin off my feet. Good paper is worth the money. 99% of festoons success is the paper not the sander. Festoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I would blame the paper not the sander. Cheap paper like the crap lowes sells wont sand the dead skin off my feet. Good paper is worth the money. 99% of festoons success is the paper not the sander. I'm wandering a bit about the paper, but my choices are limited. The paper is Bosch which I thought should be okay based on a review from wood magazine: http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/reviews/sanders/sanding-discs/ Klingspor's Stearate discs got the best review based on material removal rate and I've heard other people talk well about them on the internet. Unfortunately, Festool discs aren't referred to in the summary. Then Bosch, Norton, Makita, Mirka and others were mentioned as performing well for both removal rate and performed better with the finish than the Klingspor. Bosch and Festool papers I can get in store in my city, but the others I would need to hunt on the Internet. I don't think the festool papers' holes line up with the other sanders on the market so I haven't tried them. I haven't been suspecting the paper since I haven't found anyone talking overly bad about the Bosch or Makita papers. Anyone else here have experience with these papers for a ROS? I'm thinking that for the amount of wood work I'm planning, it might be worth someday upgrading to something like the Bosch GEX150 with coarse and fine sanding function. I don't know if I could ever justify a Festool (or get it past my wife). Edited February 26, 2014 by monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 i have used 40 grit bosch discs and they worked fine. something is just not adding up. what speed do you have your sander set at? Do you have pictures of your paper and the board you are trying to sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 If it dulls quickly it's junk. It may look just fine and will be dull. http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/SandpaperAggressivenessChart2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I would blame the paper not the sander. Cheap paper like the crap lowes sells wont sand the dead skin off my feet. Good paper is worth the money. 99% of festoons success is the paper not the sander. I will have to agree that Festool's paper is top notch. I have their sander, but it is not necessary. I like the ergonomics, size, variable speed, and dust collection. So it works for me, but it is not an end all be all sander. I have used the same pieces of 120, 180, and 220 on my sander for about 3 months now. I've sanded a huge quilting table, desk, two tables, and some other smaller projects in between. Still holding up. $10-$15 for a pack of 10 discs really isn't too bad an investment. If you have the money upfront to buy bigger quantities of paper, you save a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hi All, I really appreciate your feedback and time. i have used 40 grit bosch discs and they worked fine. something is just not adding up. what speed do you have your sander set at? Do you have pictures of your paper and the board you are trying to sand? I'm using the sander at maximum speed (12,000 RPM, it has a 3mm / 1/8" eliptical action). I finally got a chance to get some photos, see attached (the photos aren't great, I won't get a chance to take more until the weekend). In the top left is the stock sample with the rough texture I'm trying to smooth. What do you call the texture? Is it from milling? I'm going to call them milling marks for the time being until I know better. In the top right I have spent 5 mins on a similar size sample (all from the same stock) which is about 4" x 6" on max speed with small suction. The board does feel smoother but there are still some of those milling marks (more visible in the photo at the bottom right). On a different sample (not in the photo) I can get rid of these milling marks with an electric handheld planer set at minimum cutting depth. On the bottom left you can see the 40 grit has not visibly reduced the thickness of the veneer I've been sanding. On the bottom right you can see a piece I gave up on at 40 grit and persevered with finishing. That piece had about 30 mins of 40 grit sanding. I know the timber has darker and lighter fibers, I don't believe that the lines are from the fibers. The reason I haven't been using the planer is that I thought for such a small amount of material I'm trying to remove, the ROS should be good enough. The Planer is very noisy and I only have between 7:30 PM and 8:00 PM to work on this (also I don't have enough skill to prevent ruining a board, but I'm practicing slowly on test pieces when I can). Based on reading around on the internet, a ROS should be good enough to clean up this surface texture (but please correct me if I've misunderstood). If it dulls quickly it's junk. It may look just fine and will be dull.http://images.meredith.com/wood/pdf/SandpaperAggressivenessChart2.pdf Thanks very much for the link. I can certainly agree that the Bosch paper dulls quickly. I didn't get a photo of the paper I'm using, but to the eye it looks brand new (because it was brand new with 15 minutes use on it). When I feel it however, it feels very very similar to the new ones but the new ones have a slightly sharper feel in some places (the difference is marginal but would probably correlate to the chart you linked). I will have to agree that Festool's paper is top notch. I have their sander, but it is not necessary. I like the ergonomics, size, variable speed, and dust collection. So it works for me, but it is not an end all be all sander. I have used the same pieces of 120, 180, and 220 on my sander for about 3 months now. I've sanded a huge quilting table, desk, two tables, and some other smaller projects in between. Still holding up. $10-$15 for a pack of 10 discs really isn't too bad an investment. If you have the money upfront to buy bigger quantities of paper, you save a lot more. Right, well, I'm going to get some Festool papers. I don't think the suction holes line up but I can fix that. I know I'll be reducing my sanding area but it will be interesting to see how they perform in the meantime. I should get time this weekend to play with the festool papers. I might also have to start shopping internationally for papers because I'm struggling to find a wide range in Australia. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdie Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 I'm pretty sure it's not the tool but a combination of the paper and the wood. First of all, I think the wood you're using isn't a finish grade wood and what you're describing are deep scratches, not something that can be easily sanded off. Second, if you're trying to get a smooth surface you're using way too heavy a grit. I'd fill those scratches with some kind of filler. Experiment to get something that'll match the tone of the wood and tell everyone it's an odd grain. Then start your sanding with a higher grit and work your way up to a fine finish. Construction grade ply is a nice price point to work with but it's not so great for achieving a fine finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 My bet is the 40 grit paper created more scratches than it removed. I rarely use 40, and when I do it's usually the first step in removing deep carving marks from a grinder. 40 grit scratches are a bitch to get out...you have to be extremely thorough with 80 grit afterward or they'll stick around even if you move all the way up through 320. In the future I'd stay away from whatever "plywood" requires sanding with 40 grit...sounds like you're using sheathing to me. Most quality hardwood ply would be ruined after about, well, one millisecond with 40 grit. I usually hit ply lightly with 180 or 220 and call her done. If the scratches are too deep to get out with 180, then they're too deep to get out...without sanding through the veneer. Are you sure you're using plywood? I've never used plywood that resulted in the thought..."think I'll hit this with an electric hand planer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbutcher74 Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Are you putting the rough scratchy side down? The fuzzy side goes toward the sander. Sorry, I'm a smart ace. The only time I have ever used 40 grit is when I was stripping oak flooring and it tore through the oak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Pritchard Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 I've never used 40 grit paper. I always start at 80 grit and work my way up from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Hi All, Sorry for the late reply. 40 Grit, scratchiest side down, barely makes a mark over the existing longitudinal lines that go along the grain on either CD ply or AA hardwood Marine ply. My plan was: 40 Grit for material removal to get through the marks on the face and then 80, 120, 180, 240. But the 40 wasn't working and neither was the 80 (ie, the scratches that I was trying to remove which stretched the length of the board were taking a long time to go anywhere and there was no risk of me sanding through the veneer). As suggested I played with vacuum pressure and different papers (Bosch, Makita, Festool) and all are for dry wood sanding. I haven't tried Klingspore yet and hope to eventually. I wasn't really sure a sander was the best tool for the job to begin with, but it was all I had available and the panels are too large for a jointer / planer. I've since gone out and gotten Marc's book on the hybrid workshop. I'm using card scrapers and they are certainly out performing the sander for material removal and finish. A bit more elbow grease, but that doesn't bother me. I'm planning on getting a #5 smoothing plane and start learning the world of planing. I was really surprised to find that there are cases where hand tools will outperform power tools, I'm new to this. I think I'll eventually get the 6" Bosch Turbo just to make lighter work of any sanding I will do, but the $20 set of card scrapers is delaying that purchase for the time being. Thanks all for your help. I'm curious to know what other's think of the result. I don't think my sanding technique is so bad that I'm not making a dent and I don't expect that the 5" Makita is a poor quality sander. I'm still confused about it all. I'm glad to be discovering some hand tools that can help (which mean I can do it late at night), but I remember when I first bought my sander I was using furniture grade hoop pine plywood panels to build a small cabinet and I also spent what felt like forever sanding. I was sanding plywood panels for hours then as well. I bought a dewalt electric hand planer at the time (I've since returned it for my money back) and planed back the wood then used the sander to smooth over the marks made by the planer - it took ages. I'm expecting my new workflow to use a smoothing plane / card scraper to clean up the plywood surface and if need be ROS on high grit papers only. Gary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Something is not right. I have never had a card scraper out perform 40, 80, or even 100 grit on a cheap DeWalt ROS. I would suggest finding a sander to borrow. Confirm on scrap first that your sander and the borrowed sander function similarly. With 40 grit I can remove veneer in seconds in all but treated ply and that is because the "wetness" of the treated gums the paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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