Powermatic Sale making my Table saw decision tougher


bgreenb

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Hi all,

 

I was really hesitant to start another SawStop vs. Powermatic slugfest on here, but here goes nothing.  I've been planning for a while to buy a cabinet saw (my *last* cabinet saw) this March.  After a bunch of research, I had decided to buy the SawStop industrial (ICS), which seems like the proper comparison to the PM2000.  Looking at the base price (~3100 for the PM2000 and ~3900 for the ICS), I was able to justify the extra expense to myself for the SawStop.

 

Then I went to Woodcraft to start talking prices.  Turns out once you actually build the SawStop out with the mobile base, add in taxes (ICS isn't sold online) and shipping (can't believe it's not free shipping), you're actually more like 4400.  Then I was wavering on the price difference.

 

Finally, I got a flyer in the mail last week that the Powermatic savings event starts this weekend and offers 15% off all power tools.  When you include the fact that the PM2000 ships for free and I can buy it online (and thus avoid sales tax), it ends up at like $2600 versus $4400 for the SawStop.  Everybody I've talked to in person has claimed to me that the ICS is a better saw than the PM2000 even when you take the safety mechanism out of the discussion.  Even if I believe that, the PM2000 is obviously a top of the line saw, so is $1800 worth the safety mechanism plus some small amount of higher quality?  I suppose only I can answer that question, but I'd love to hear anyone's opinion on any of this.

 

Obviously I could split the difference and go with the professional series on the SawStop (PCS) and the price would be more in line (3300 versus 2600 for the PM2000), but all my research (including previous threads here) indicates that the PCS is a lesser saw than the PM2000.  

 

Any advice?  I'm a hobbyist woodworker looking to make my last ever saw purchase.  In either case I'd be going with the 3HP version, as that would suit my needs.

 

Couple other random thoughts:  I have a daughter and would eventually like to introduce her to woodworking, which made the SawStop more initially attractive, but maybe it's better to just teach proper safety habits anyway.  Not like I'd be letting her operate a table saw until she's MUCH older anyway.  Also, I do worry a bit about the complex circuitry in the SawStop.  It's just more crap that can break.  The PM2000 is a very simple machine that can be serviced with local parts basically forever.  

 

Consider me vexed (I know - world's smallest violin playing just for me and my table saw purchase).  

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I haven't really read anything stating the PCS is inferior to the PM2000.   The PM2000 has a slightly larger table, and I think the PCS maxes out at 3hp.  If you wanted  more power than you need to step up to the ICS, but you state you think 3hp is enough.  For a hobby shop, I think the PCS would be the last saw you need.  I have the sawstop contractor model and it is all the saw I need for now, if I ever upgrade it will be the PCS.     Honestly I have not spent much time comparing the PCS or ICS to the PM, those are just my initial thought to help get the coversation going.   

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I am going through this myself with buying my new building I bought a Griz but it was not up to my standards so sold it off immediately for a loss. I have a 5hp PM and it has been a great saw. I looked at saw stop but would want to recover the extra elsewhere. I asked my insurance company if we could get a discount with sawstop and they said no that there was no data to support the claims. They put me in touch with a L&I rep that said exactly the same thing that most accidents they see are from improper use and that the electronics did not slow down accidents in the workplace thus they dont offer a rate reduction. All saws have the same requirements in the workplace irregardless of brand and if used with those requirements there should be no benefit. But there is a rate increase if we bring in the RAS or an overarm router as there is a proven increase in accidents even under the current regulation for those two machines. If we bring in a slider the motor brake will give a very slight rate reduction over a stationary tilting arbor saw without a motor brake. If we implement an operator training program we get the biggest discount on both private insurance and L&I. 

 

So take it for what its worth. My now ten year old grandson has been using a 5hp PM2000 and a 12" jet for the last year and I dont have any issue with it. In the short time I've read this forum Ive read about more accident or near misses than I have in the more than quarter century I have been in this industry working with professionals and much heavier equipment. I do think there is a need for Saw Stop but only in a limited market. If your the guy that is going to use your table saw to rip down a unjointed 2x4 for a home repair or saves scraps and makes dangerous cut to save pennies on lumber then yes a SS might be right for you. If you only work with properly surfaced and jointed lumber and dont take chances and use the saw as it was intended then I say no there is no real benefit.

 

I am in no way joe safety but I think since the addition of riving knives to almost every saw out there we have seen much less issues even with those that dont respect the machines. One thing i think causes more problems than anything else is guys buying a saw without enough surface. They want to play like the big boys but wont spent the money to buy a big boy saw. Contractors saving the weight and using tiny contractor saws on site for operations that are just plain dangerous. The construction industry is where most of the accidents happen not the stationary wood working shop.

 

I can't count how many times I've read "my saw cuts 8/4 hard maple just fine". So many times you just want to call bull shit but really its not bull its just the fact that these folks dont know what "just fine" really is. Most will never have the oportunity to use a saw that will actually make those cuts just fine so they will never be convinced that what they are doing is possibly unsafe. The majority will just claim hobby shop so no need. It really boils down to the right tool for the job. Not using the right tool or thinking you have more than you really do causes accidents. Thats exactly why the insurance company and L&I offer discounts for training programs.

 

Personally Im not convinced so I opted for the PM3000 and that saw is in completely different league than the SS "industrial". I see greater benefit in the much larger table surface and HP to make the cuts rather than forcing a cut.

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The construction industry is where most of the accidents happen not the stationary wood working shop.

 

 

Yeah, I nearly crapped my pants when I saw what our flooring contractor did with his little jobsite saw or even his circular saw.  Scary.

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I am going through this myself with buying my new building I bought a Griz but it was not up to my standards so sold it off immediately for a loss. I have a 5hp PM and it has been a great saw. I looked at saw stop but would want to recover the extra elsewhere. I asked my insurance company if we could get a discount with sawstop and they said no that there was no data to support the claims. They put me in touch with a L&I rep that said exactly the same thing that most accidents they see are from improper use and that the electronics did not slow down accidents in the workplace thus they dont offer a rate reduction. All saws have the same requirements in the workplace irregardless of brand and if used with those requirements there should be no benefit. But there is a rate increase if we bring in the RAS or an overarm router as there is a proven increase in accidents even under the current regulation for those two machines. If we bring in a slider the motor brake will give a very slight rate reduction over a stationary tilting arbor saw without a motor brake. If we implement an operator training program we get the biggest discount on both private insurance and L&I. 

 

So take it for what its worth. My now ten year old grandson has been using a 5hp PM2000 and a 12" jet for the last year and I dont have any issue with it. In the short time I've read this forum Ive read about more accident or near misses than I have in the more than quarter century I have been in this industry working with professionals and much heavier equipment. I do think there is a need for Saw Stop but only in a limited market. If your the guy that is going to use your table saw to rip down a unjointed 2x4 for a home repair or saves scraps and makes dangerous cut to save pennies on lumber then yes a SS might be right for you. If you only work with properly surfaced and jointed lumber and dont take chances and use the saw as it was intended then I say no there is no real benefit.

 

I am in no way joe safety but I think since the addition of riving knives to almost every saw out there we have seen much less issues even with those that dont respect the machines. One thing i think causes more problems than anything else is guys buying a saw without enough surface. They want to play like the big boys but wont spent the money to buy a big boy saw. Contractors saving the weight and using tiny contractor saws on site for operations that are just plain dangerous. The construction industry is where most of the accidents happen not the stationary wood working shop.

 

I can't count how many times I've read "my saw cuts 8/4 hard maple just fine". So many times you just want to call bull shit but really its not bull its just the fact that these folks dont know what "just fine" really is. Most will never have the oportunity to use a saw that will actually make those cuts just fine so they will never be convinced that what they are doing is possibly unsafe. The majority will just claim hobby shop so no need. It really boils down to the right tool for the job. Not using the right tool or thinking you have more than you really do causes accidents. Thats exactly why the insurance company and L&I offer discounts for training programs.

 

Personally Im not convinced so I opted for the PM3000 and that saw is in completely different league than the SS "industrial". I see greater benefit in the much larger table surface and HP to make the cuts rather than forcing a cut.

 

Thanks PB, I respect your opinion and was actually hoping you'd chime in on this.  My feeling is the same as yours - I'm very careful with the blade, and the only close calls I've had were with kickback incidents, which the SS wouldn't help with anyway, or trying to push my Bosch table saw too far (like trying to cut 8/4 cutting board stock - I'll never do that again).  Of course accidents happen, but does that justify an extra almost $2000 for the comparable saw (again, assuming the ICS is the proper comparison?)  

 

Also, to go back to the PCS/ICS thing, I was just looking up the specs, and the PCS is only about half the weight of the PM2000/ICS.  I'm not a mechanical engineer or a saw designer, but I think weight is a decent proxy for "engineering sophistication" - obviously you could just throw sand bags inside something to make it heavier, but somehow I doubt that's what's happening here.  

 

At this point I'm very much leaning toward the PM2000 and keeping the extra money in my pocket - I'm almost looking for someone to try to convince me otherwise, if I'm missing something.  

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Short answer is if youre not worried about the ss saftey feature, youll be more than happy with the pm2000. And this is the best weekend to buy with the sale. Main reason i bought my pm mortiser this past weekend at the show, i got 15% off and took it home with me so i got great deal, free shipping and zero wait time.

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I'm just throwing a hypothetical idea out there, so I am not saying this is true by any means.

 

But, do you think the chance of someone being more lackadaisical with a SawStop is higher than a comparable saw of same size? Inadvertently, having the thought of, "I'm safe with that safety feature," is in their head somewhere.

 

If you can follow a the safety guidelines that PB stated, which we all should follow anyway, with the properly sized and surfaced lumber, you should be just fine. I, nor anyone, can every justify the guarantee that you will be safe 100% of the time with tools like these. Anything can happen, but taking all appropriate precautions before, during, and after use is paramount.

 

I'd say go with the PM2000. When I have my own shop space out of a basement, that is the first tool I am buying to replace my current saw.

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But, do you think the chance of someone being more lackadaisical with a SawStop is higher than a comparable saw of same size? Inadvertently, having the thought of, "I'm safe with that safety feature," is in their head somewhere.

 

If you can follow a the safety guidelines that PB stated, which we all should follow anyway, with the properly sized and surfaced lumber, you should be just fine. I, nor anyone, can every justify the

 

I can only speak for myself and the answer is no.  A spinning blade is a spnning blade.  Even though I have a sawstop I still don't want to be touching that blade. 

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I'm just throwing a hypothetical idea out there, so I am not saying this is true by any means.

 

But, do you think the chance of someone being more lackadaisical with a SawStop is higher than a comparable saw of same size? Inadvertently, having the thought of, "I'm safe with that safety feature," is in their head somewhere.

 

 

 

If your the guy that would test the SS system with your own finger then Id say yes but most are not that stupid so I dont think its a real concern.

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I can only speak for myself and the answer is no.  A spinning blade is a spnning blade.  Even though I have a sawstop I still don't want to be touching that blade. 

Well I don't mean to touch it purposely. But, like PB said, increasing the risk by trying much more dangerous cuts.

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I have copied and pasted the following from Don's post.  I think it's worth reading if you skipped it.  I could have almost written the exact same thing.  I was really surprised when I started reading woodworking forums by how many accidents, and near misses there have been.  I've been in it for 41 years.

 

start quote from Don:

 

" In the short time I've read this forum Ive read about more accident or near misses than I have in the more than quarter century I have been in this industry working with professionals and much heavier equipment. I do think there is a need for Saw Stop but only in a limited market. If your the guy that is going to use your table saw to rip down a unjointed 2x4 for a home repair or saves scraps and makes dangerous cut to save pennies on lumber then yes a SS might be right for you. If you only work with properly surfaced and jointed lumber and dont take chances and use the saw as it was intended then I say no there is no real benefit.

 

I am in no way joe safety but I think since the addition of riving knives to almost every saw out there we have seen much less issues even with those that dont respect the machines. One thing i think causes more problems than anything else is guys buying a saw without enough surface. They want to play like the big boys but wont spent the money to buy a big boy saw. Contractors saving the weight and using tiny contractor saws on site for operations that are just plain dangerous. The construction industry is where most of the accidents happen not the stationary wood working shop."

 

end of quote.

 

 I'm sure it will freak you out, but I have never used a splitter or any kind of anti-kickback device, and don't really know anyone of the other long time pros that I've known over these years to use one either.  I have personally never known of any of these guys to get hurt by a tablesaw.  A number of them had about the same amount of time in it that I do now when I knew them as a young man.  But it should be noted that every one of them had a jointer sitting near the tablesaw, and rarely, or maybe even never, ran a board through the saw without going over the jointer first.  Now of course we have all felt a board close up on the blade, but it gets backed up and not forced.  None of these old guys, including me, would consider using some of the little saws that are sold these days.

 

This post is just a "for what it's worth", and not a suggestion as an example for anyone else.  It should also be noted that no one, including my helpers, uses my table saw, and other big stationary tools but me.  They catch the outfeed, hand stuff to me, and help support, but that's mostly it.   I don't have employees that use them.

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Well I don't mean to touch it purposely. But, like PB said, increasing the risk by trying much more dangerous cuts.

 

no I don't want to touch it accidentally either.  So I operate the machine the safest way I know how, and only do cuts I am comfortable with.  but like I said I can only speak for myself. 

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The first question asked from the sawstop demo guy is, "does the safety feature make you a safer operator?" The answer is no. Neglegence and complacency are at your own risk. I dont want to lose any fingers in my shop, but i still wasnt fully sold on the ss. I am however warming up to it, and it's fit and finish is among the finest of cabinet saws available to us today.

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The first question asked from the sawstop demo guy is, "does the safety feature make you a safer operator?" The answer is no. Neglegence and complacency are at your own risk. I dont want to lose any fingers in my shop, but i still wasnt fully sold on the ss. I am however warming up to it, and it's fit and finish is among the finest of cabinet saws available to us today.

 

Right.  Just like a seatbelt doesn't make you a safer driver.  Of course, a seatbelt is included with a car.  The sawstop safety mechanism is obviously a really cool piece of engineering and I don't doubt that it's saved some fingers, but the proper question is "how many of the saved fingers were attached to a person who was operating the saw safely and correctly?"  

 

I agree with Woodsap that I don't think it would make me complacent to have a sawstop - I think I'd keep my same habits and basically forget that the mechanism is there.  But the more I think about it, the more I think that insurance policy isn't necessarily worth the extra cost.  (Or it could be the cheap side of me trying to justify spending less money).

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Right.  Just like a seatbelt doesn't make you a safer driver.  Of course, a seatbelt is included with a car.  The sawstop safety mechanism is obviously a really cool piece of engineering and I don't doubt that it's saved some fingers, but the proper question is "how many of the saved fingers were attached to a person who was operating the saw safely and correctly?"  

 

I agree with Woodsap that I don't think it would make me complacent to have a sawstop - I think I'd keep my same habits and basically forget that the mechanism is there.  But the more I think about it, the more I think that insurance policy isn't necessarily worth the extra cost.  (Or it could be the cheap side of me trying to justify spending less money).

 

I think the answer is none. Saws dont jump at you and cut you. Its always operator error 100% of the time. Ive never had my saw chase me down and try to hack off my fingers.

 

Will you get complacent yes its human nature, even my riving knife has made me become more lax than I would have been in the past. The PM is the first saw I've used that had a riving knife or splitter so I've gotten sort of relaxed due to having it. Its just the way it is. You learn what you can get away with and it may be unsafe. It may not bite you today but it will get you eventually. This is where the SS has merit. If you can keep yourself from doing that then it is of no real value. Rules are rules dont break them and you should have no issues.

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I'm gonna play contrarian because that's who I am and it's fun for me.  I don't have a dog in this race and I truly don't care which saw ends up in your shop, green. :D  I don't own a SawStop and trust me, I'm turned off big time when I go to a show or a woodworking store or anyplace they sell SawStops and they give you the holier-than-thou routine and treat you like an idiot if you don't own one.  But I'm gonna throw out a couple points since you seem almost settled :) ...

 

- You said you wanted this to be your last saw.  In my experience, you never regret the extra money you spend when buying more tool...but you very often regret buying less tool.  The rest of your life is a long time for regret to creep in.

 

- You said you have a daughter that you'd like to introduce to the craft.  This is a big one for me, and frankly the only reason I can fathom turning in my Grizzly one day...and I'm perfectly happy with my Grizzly and it could very well be my "last" saw if not for these two kids who I'd love to bring into the shop one day.  I'm comfortable with myself at a tablesaw...I know what I'm doing and I'm in control.  If I do lose a digit one day, oh well, so be it, I'll live...but the thought of one of my babies losing a finger puts me off my food in a major way.

 

- And finally...what's $1800 over the course of a lifetime?  Peanuts.

 

You're welcome. :)

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There we go, someone playing devil's advocate.  I like it!  
 

I'm gonna play contrarian because that's who I am and it's fun for me.  I don't have a dog in this race and I truly don't care which saw ends up in your shop, green. :D  I don't own a SawStop and trust me, I'm turned off big time when I go to a show or a woodworking store or anyplace they sell SawStops and they give you the holier-than-thou routine and treat you like an idiot if you don't own one.  But I'm gonna throw out a couple points since you seem almost settled :) ...


Agreed with this, and further I find the SawStop push for mandatory blade stopping technology very distasteful. I'll stop there so as not to inject politics into the conversation, but suffice it to say I'd rather let each individual decide what's best for him.
 

- You said you wanted this to be your last saw.  In my experience, you never regret the extra money you spend when buying more tool...but you very often regret buying less tool.  The rest of your life is a long time for regret to creep in.


That's true, and I definitely prefer to go with the "buy once, cry once" motto. But part of what I'm trying to get here is - is the PM2000 really "less tool" than the ICS to any appreciable degree (safety aside)? Probably not, by most accounts.
 

- You said you have a daughter that you'd like to introduce to the craft.  This is a big one for me, and frankly the only reason I can fathom turning in my Grizzly one day...and I'm perfectly happy with my Grizzly and it could very well be my "last" saw if not for these two kids who I'd love to bring into the shop one day.  I'm comfortable with myself at a tablesaw...I know what I'm doing and I'm in control.  If I do lose a digit one day, oh well, so be it, I'll live...but the thought of one of my babies losing a finger puts me off my food in a major way.


Yup - I keep coming back to this. And this kind of ties in with what PB was saying. I agree with PB in the sense that I will teach my daughter the proper habits and make sure she abides by them, etc. But it's like you said - I trust MYSELF with the saw. I get very nervous when I'm not in control. My daughter is nowhere near driving age, but when she turns 16, I'll teach her how to drive safely, of course, but that doesn't mean I won't be worried sick every time she's on the road!
 

Similarly, in the shop, of course I'll teach her the proper habits and techniques, but I'll also be worried every time she turns the saw on because it's just in my nature, as I'm sure PB worries about his grandson. It's natural.

Honestly, this might be the biggest sticking point for me. If I had no kids and no plans to have any I'd probably already be on my way to woodcraft to pick up the PM2000.
 

- And finally...what's $1800 over the course of a lifetime?  Peanuts.


Can't argue with that   :D

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That's true, and I definitely prefer to go with the "buy once, cry once" motto. But part of what I'm trying to get here is - is the PM2000 really "less tool" than the ICS to any appreciable degree (safety aside)? Probably not, by most accounts.

 

 

When I say "less tool," I'm talking only about the safety feature.  I personally don't think there's much discernible difference in quality between the two...this comes from a guy who has owned neither.  I do hear that the SS dust collection is head and shoulders above all other comparable saws, though.

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When I say "less tool," I'm talking only about the safety feature.  I personally don't think there's much discernible difference in quality between the two...this comes from a guy who has owned neither.  I do hear that the SS dust collection is head and shoulders above all other comparable saws, though.

 

Its pretty much the same. A half shroud around the blade connected to the dust port.

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Had a conversation about Sawstop this afternoon with non-woodworking coworkers watching some of the videos on YouTube (and me suggesting the ever-popular Roy Underhill southern fried chicken video). Not going over all the discussion because the same discussion has been beaten to death, but when the subject of my own saw came up, I said what I've always felt using the proper precautions, push blocks, whatnot, "The saw can't cut off what's not there."

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