nod Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Interesting read all around. Yes, we've all seen this back and forth across many forums and old threads. I was discussing riving knives/splitters with my neighbor who's a full time woodworker. He was telling me how he cut those pieces of excess material off the saw. It cracked me up as an 'old way' of thinking. But, during his explanation he was going on about paying attention to what the wood was doing, when it's binding, when to stop pushing, knowing when a kickback problem could occur, etc. It was a nice reminder to me to think, being safe with precautions is one thing, but true working experience counts for SO much more. Still, I'm nowhere as experienced, so I'm shopping for riving knives for my rivingLess new-to-me saw. With that said, if I was going to spend that much money, I'd likely lean to SS just because of the other user factor. You can only be accountable for yourself, and train the youngin's as best as possible. LIke that analogy someone said earlier about driving and seatbelts.. You can equate that to practically anything - cars, guns, bikes, whatever.. BUT, can't you agree we know more now that we did before? bike helmets, airbags, and so on and so on. Aside from their sales pitch and other debatable antics, why not be safer with the ones you want to protect? Doesnt' sound like SS is delivering a sub standard saw, are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotscott Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 While the PM2000 and the ICS may be beefier saws than the PCS, I'd be shocked if the PCS (or the Grizzly) weren't beefy enough. Depending on what you're planning on doing with it, anything beyond a certain level is overkill. Blade selection and alignment are the determining factors in the end performance. Since budget is part of the logic in your decision, I'd either grab a Grizzly cabinet saw to get the most bang for my buck, or would go for the PCS and get the safety feature that happens to come on a great saw. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 This is why we can justify sawstop. This high school shop class instructor is an idiot with a sawstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Proctor Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I have about a 20 year old PM66 and it's still running strong. The only thing I've ever had to do to it is replace the capacitor start on the motor, and that was about two months ago. I've thought about replacing it with a PCS but decided it wasn't worth spending the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer_J Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 i have a buddy who owns a furniture shop doing big tables and commercial stuff. he had a 3hp unisaw and kept blowing the capacitor so he consulted with a woodworking equipment specialist and got a 3 phase 5hp ICS saw stop. the first week, saw hit a nail, out a cartridge. put the new cartridge in. week later thing kicked another blade. now he just runs the saw in bypass mode. all four of the guys who use it have never been cut in the flesh in the three years of owning it and running it 7 days a week. they have all been professionally trained on how to use a table saw and respect their materials. i was so jealous when he first got that saw because i was talking to him weeks earlier about it, saying i was interested in buying one and how great quality they were. but after watching his team become disabled in an afternoon because of a nail, i realized that it's not for me. my hand should never come in contact with the blade no matter what. i like the fit and finish on the saw stop, all the bells and whistles are awesome. i still don't think i will buy one though. i feel like i would become lax about safety, therefore i'm not taking a risk. i think you should go with the powermatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteJr Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I have the PM2000 and highly recommend it. I also use the Sharkguard blade guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick2cd Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 - You said you wanted this to be your last saw. In my experience, you never regret the extra money you spend when buying more tool...but you very often regret buying less tool. The rest of your life is a long time for regret to creep in. - You said you have a daughter that you'd like to introduce to the craft. This is a big one for me, and frankly the only reason I can fathom turning in my Grizzly one day...and I'm perfectly happy with my Grizzly and it could very well be my "last" saw if not for these two kids who I'd love to bring into the shop one day. I'm comfortable with myself at a tablesaw...I know what I'm doing and I'm in control. If I do lose a digit one day, oh well, so be it, I'll live...but the thought of one of my babies losing a finger puts me off my food in a major way. - And finally...what's $1800 over the course of a lifetime? Peanuts. You're welcome. This mirrors my thoughts exactly. Get the SawStop. The safety feature is HUGE....much bigger than most people give it credit. We are humans and even with all the training in the world we will still make mistakes....guaranteed. If there is a technology available that could turn that mistake into a paper cut vs something that could end your woodworking career, why wouldn't u get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 This is why we can justify sawstop. This high school shop class instructor is an idiot with a sawstop. I didn't watch the video, but the opening picture was enough to turn me off. I'd never use a push stick like that. Any push sticks we use also hold the board down. Any push stick should not just simply push the board through, but also hold it down and give control for holding it against the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Biggest problem there is no riving knife or splitter, and I'm damn sure the saw came with one. Just plain stupid. Also I hope he explained to the lad to apply a little more downward pressure next time to keep the board from lifting. Common mistake we all made in the beginning. And no hearing protection. And why not add a featherboard for a cut like that just because they're cheap and right there in the drawer. But given the circumstances, the kid didn't do too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Not too mention someone at the end of the cut "helping" pull the board through the blade. That cut was a bad kick back waiting to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I watched the video, and it wasn't the worst thing I have ever seen. Pretty good job at keeping his distance from the blade, however. If that was one of his first cuts on the saw, kudos to him. It is not his fault that the safety features are stripped from the saw by his instructor. Again, I think this leads back to someone having the mind set that, "The blade will stop if I touch it, so I don't need to worry about it as much." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 If I were a woodworking teacher with a SawStop, or I just owned one for my own shop and had my kids working on it, I would never tell them about the safety feature. I'd just carry on as if it'll slice your fingers off faster than you can say Vienna sausages just like every other tool in the shop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 about 12 seconds in the boards starts to lift, that kid narrowly missed a kick back. It doesn't even look like the shop teacher saw it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I watched the video, and it wasn't the worst thing I have ever seen. Pretty good job at keeping his distance from the blade, however. If that was one of his first cuts on the saw, kudos to him. It is not his fault that the safety features are stripped from the saw by his instructor. Again, I think this leads back to someone having the mind set that, "The blade will stop if I touch it, so I don't need to worry about it as much." There is absolutely nothing right about the video. First where the teacher is standing he can't see the workpiece nor can he act. Second he obviously stripped the safety features off the saw. I really doubt the taxpayers approved the money for a sawstop just to have him remove safety features. A school in any state has the same regulations as a workplace here that would cost a guy $5000 in fines. The kid is afraid of the saw and has his hands to far away from the blade forcing the table edge to be a fulcrum lifting the wood off the table. The instructor can't even see that from where he is standing. I saw the wood lift at least twice, he obviously does not care and is more concerned about blocking the camera to get a video. One reason bigger saws are safer is because they have the room in front of the blade to hold the wood properly. Now the real problem is the kid thinks he knows how to use a table saw and when he gets a little older may just go out and buy one. This is the guy that is going to be nutted by kickback or wack a finger off because the instructor did not care. This is the problem, its lack of education not the saw. IMO if this kid get hurt using his own saw 10 years from now being safe learning what he learned in shop class the teacher and school should be held responsible. Hell they were even smart enough to video tape their own neglegence. How many kids has this guy taught bad habits to without them even knowing that they are bad. How many of those kids will be hurt because they were taught bad habits from the start. This doesn't even take into account the many that were self taught and still dont even know they are unsafe and are riding on luck alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 There is absolutely nothing right about the video. First where the teacher is standing he can't see the workpiece nor can he act. Second he obviously stripped the safety features off the saw. I really doubt the taxpayers approved the money for a sawstop just to have him remove safety features. A school in any state has the same regulations as a workplace here that would cost a guy $5000 in fines. The kid is afraid of the saw and has his hands to far away from the blade forcing the table edge to be a fulcrum lifting the wood off the table. The instructor can't even see that from where he is standing. I saw the wood lift at least twice, he obviously does not care and is more concerned about blocking the camera to get a video. One reason bigger saws are safer is because they have the room in front of the blade to hold the wood properly. Now the real problem is the kid thinks he knows how to use a table saw and when he gets a little older may just go out and buy one. This is the guy that is going to be nutted by kickback or wack a finger off because the instructor did not care. This is the problem, its lack of education not the saw. IMO if this kid get hurt using his own saw 10 years from now being safe learning what he learned in shop class the teacher and school should be held responsible. Hell they were even smart enough to video tape their own neglegence. How many kids has this guy taught bad habits to without them even knowing that they are bad. How many of those kids will be hurt because they were taught bad habits from the start. This doesn't even take into account the many that were self taught and still dont even know they are unsafe and are riding on luck alone. I want to let it be known that I am not condoning this video by any shot. I don't like what I saw, but I have seen worse. Take it for what it's worth, but what I meant by giving him a compliment on his cut is not freaking out when it started to lift. He calmly gained control (as best he can through his "teaching") and continued through. I like to hear about the fines a teacher by you would get, and I wish that was the case everyone (if it is not in some sort of way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The wood shop from my middle school phased out a long time ago. But when i was in the class, we were not allowed to go near the table saw. We were allowed to use the bandsaw. I had no spark for woodworking then, i did enjoy working with my hands though. I was really serious when i built my popsicle bridge and egg space ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 The wood shop from my middle school phased out a long time ago. But when i was in the class, we were not allowed to go near the table saw. We were allowed to use the bandsaw. I had no spark for woodworking then, i did enjoy working with my hands though. I was really serious when i built my popsicle bridge and egg space ship. In high school we weren't allowed to use the massive jointer. I didn't even know what the tool was at the time, but I know my teacher is missing about 1-2 inches of 3 of his fingers because of it. Probably about 90+ inches long and at least 15" wide, from what I remember. Wish my school would just give it to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 It is possible to use a saw safely, it's just a matter of following the rules and keeping focus. There is a guy on youtube coming up in the world of woodworking videos that preaches safety but in one video he kept pushing boards through the saw with his hand inline with the blade. That's how people get hurt. The worst safety issue in the shop class video is that crappy pushstick, this isn't 1979 and everyone should know better. If that board goes there is no one on earth fast enough to do anything about it regardless of where they stand. I find it odd they seem to bragging about this brand new saw but have removed the riving knife and guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 the first thing that jumped out at me was his left hand creating a pivot point. I saw that before I even noticed the blade guard and splitter were removed. That saw comes with any awesome guard that has a splitter and anti kickback trawls all integrated into one assembly. It takes 20 seconds to install with no tools. The instructor clearly was not trained on how to use the saw or how to teach a kid to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Marblehead High School woodworking teacher Peter Sheridan knew a SawStop–a table saw that stops spinning immediately when it senses an object like a finger or hand is in its path–was a must-have piece of equipment in his class. According to the SawStop company, there is a table saw injury every nine minutes, and this innovative piece of equipment has become standard at workplaces and vocational schools. “But there wasn’t enough money in our budget to buy one,” Sheridan explains. He turned to FMPS for help, and was awarded a grant. The new saw not only keeps students from harm; it’s improved their learning experience. “Having the SawStop gives kids the confidence that they won’t hurt themselves, and it gives me more time for instruction since they can use it independently,” explains Sheridan. “It’s improved the class for all of us. We don’t have to wait to be supervised to use the saw. It’s made us much more productive,” explains Ben Farrar, a third-year woodworking student. Junior Drew Sigler adds, “The table saw is the main tool in woodworking, and this gives us a safe way to learn how to use it on our own.” Sheridan is thrilled with the saw, and with the ability to partner with FMPS. “FMPS is so important to the schools, especially for the arts,” he explains. “It helps fund important projects and equipment for students that just wouldn’t be possible otherwise.” - See more at: http://www.friendsofmarblehead.org/2013/#sthash.XZhmORjX.dpuf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 Marblehead High School woodworking teacher Peter Sheridan knew a SawStop–a table saw that stops spinning immediately when it senses an object like a finger or hand is in its path–was a must-have piece of equipment in his class. According to the SawStop company, there is a table saw injury every nine minutes, and this innovative piece of equipment has become standard at workplaces and vocational schools. “But there wasn’t enough money in our budget to buy one,” Sheridan explains. He turned to FMPS for help, and was awarded a grant. The new saw not only keeps students from harm; it’s improved their learning experience. “Having the SawStop gives kids the confidence that they won’t hurt themselves, and it gives me more time for instruction since they can use it independently,” explains Sheridan. “It’s improved the class for all of us. We don’t have to wait to be supervised to use the saw. It’s made us much more productive,” explains Ben Farrar, a third-year woodworking student. Junior Drew Sigler adds, “The table saw is the main tool in woodworking, and this gives us a safe way to learn how to use it on our own.” Sheridan is thrilled with the saw, and with the ability to partner with FMPS. “FMPS is so important to the schools, especially for the arts,” he explains. “It helps fund important projects and equipment for students that just wouldn’t be possible otherwise.” - See more at: http://www.friendsofmarblehead.org/2013/#sthash.XZhmORjX.dpufPretty much summed up my hypothesis in a real world uneducated scenario. They think they can't be hurt by this saw, so they don't give it the respect it deserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 the school should not take te donation unless they have the resources to provide proper training on its use to the instructor. this is a prolem in education. everyone thinks it is about having the new books or ipads or a new table saw. Turns out buying curriculum and training to go along with those things is more important. my kid's grade school was recently offered a donation of 400 iPads. While individual technology is a goal of the school they turned down the donation because they know it is just a bunch of toys until they have the curriculum that uses an Ipad in a productive way. So if the organization that donated the sawstop does not provide proper training they are doing more harm than good. If they provided the training then the instructor is just a moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am shocked bay what i just read. Sounds like goddamn amateur hour over there at that school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 When I took shop in high school, we were pretty much given free reign over the whole place...I used every tool in there with what felt like very little instruction. I remember I liked the teacher...he was a cool guy but I think he (and everyone else) would have been better off sticking to his own shop rather than teaching kids. There were several accidents in my class alone; I remember a cut finger on the bandsaw and a bowl exploded on a lathe and a chunk of wood stuck in a kid's forehead (of course he was only wearing those science class goggles ). But I have to say, unsafe practices aside, I'm happy that shop class still exists in a few schools across the country. They eliminated it in my high school about 10 years after I graduated. I'm not arguing that the instructors shouldn't know what they're doing and have the capacity and discipline to convey safe practice, but if we're not careful about it and people complain too much, you can kiss the few remaining school shops goodbye...and they won't be coming back. There should probably be (and maybe there is) some kind of universal certification course that current and potential instructors should have to attend and pass before they're allowed to teach students...then they should be checked upon randomly to make sure safe practices are in place. I'm not sure how else you can police the entire country of incompetent teachers. But that means more money and lots more whining from board members and administrators about an already unappreciated and dubious part of the curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am shocked bay what i just read. Sounds like goddamn amateur hour over there at that school! Im sure the video will come down soon after reading the email I sent along with 6 other cabinet shop owners that felt the same way. Hopefully they will do more than just take the video off line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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