Powermatic Sale making my Table saw decision tougher


bgreenb

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 The worst safety issue in the shop class video is that crappy pushstick, this isn't 1979 and everyone should know better.  

 

 

That crappy push stick is the one that comes with a sawstop.  I know this is turning into a piss on sawstop thread (a sawstop thread always ends that way) so there is one more piece of ammo.  The sawstop instruction book does comes with full-scale (I believe) drawing for shop made push sticks.... I guess that should have been the instructors first project. 

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That crappy push stick is the one that comes with a sawstop.  I know this is turning into a piss on sawstop thread (a sawstop thread always ends that way) so there is one more piece of ammo.  The sawstop instruction book does comes with full-scale (I believe) drawing for shop made push sticks.... I guess that should have been the instructors first project. 

 

Its not really a piss on saw stop thing. Its not saw stops fault people are stupid. Saw stop may just save one of those kids fingers. I think it boils down to the importance of education. The kids or sawstop are not to blame its the teacher. If he is unsafe with the table saw I would assume he is unsafe all over the classroom. The thread is wether or not to purchase a saw stop saw and IMO if you are not well aware of how to use the saw you should probably have one. If I was starting out with no experience what so ever I would buy one but having the education I really see no need. The idea behind posting the video is showing the lack of education not the false sense of security.

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Its not really a piss on saw stop thing. Its not saw stops fault people are stupid. Saw stop may just save one of those kids fingers. I think it boils down to the importance of education. The kids or sawstop are not to blame its the teacher. If he is unsafe with the table saw I would assume he is unsafe all over the classroom. The thread is wether or not to purchase a saw stop saw and IMO if you are not well aware of how to use the saw you should probably have one. If I was starting out with no experience what so ever I would buy one but having the education I really see no need. The idea behind posting the video is showing the lack of education not the false sense of security.

 

 

Interesting.  I guess I fall into the category of starting out with no experience.  I owned a crappy little crafstman job site saw years ago but figured out really quickly it was a time bomb.  That was about 10 years ago.  When I started woodworking as a hobby about 2 years ago I bought a sawstop because honestly I had no table saw training, other than common sense and watching people.  I did figure out what causes kickback pretty early on.  I almost always use the blade guard and splitter because, unlike others, I don't find them to be a nuisance (plus the dust collection built into the blade guard does a nice job with the fine dust).   So I really can't figure out why the instructor took them off, other than laziness or stupidity.  It is literally a 20 second operation, if that, to put them on.   

 

At some point I will upgrade to a 3hp or 5hp saw and due to brand loyalty will probably stick with the sawstop.  It is a well built machine.

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Wow, so many great responses!  I really appreciate everyone's help.  I actually just got back from Rockler.  No - I haven't made a purchase.  I mainly went because I thought they had a PM2000 on the floor for me to look at (turns out they didn't).  I spent a while there talking to the sales guy.  As I would expect, he gave me a big pitch on SawStop.  He was very respectful and nice about it - none of the "you're an idiot if you don't buy a sawstop" attitude.  Here is a summary of what he said:

 

- He spent a great deal of time on the fit and finish.  They had a 3HP PCS set up at the store, and he basically took it apart for me.  Said all the details are extremely well engineered.  When asked about the weight difference, he said that he finds it hard to believe the PCS is that much lighter than a PM2000 (he said he's personally unloaded both a PCS and a Unisaw from a truck and that there's no appreciable difference in weight).  He said any weight difference would be due to the cast iron in the actual cabinet of the PM2000, whereas the PCS is stamped steel.

 

- Said that the PM2000 3HP motor is more powerful than the PCS 3HP even though they're rated the same.  He said he's not sure why that is, but he noticed it and said most people that he talks to have noticed it as well.

 

- Said the ICS is "a lot of saw" - with a tone that seemed to imply I didn't need it as a hobbyist.  I don't like that but I'm used to hearing it at basically every store I go to.  

 

- Said the fence system is better on the SS because the rails are heavier duty, connected better to the saw (bigger/beefier bolts) and the fence faces are easily replaceable.

 

- Said the dust collection on the SS is a huge step up from the PM2000.  He said he's not sure why because it's a similar design, but the SS is doing something that makes the dust route better to the hose.

 

- Said for what it's worth, he hasn't sold a PM2000 table saw in years, whereas he sells a SS at least once a week.  This obviously is worth nothing to me, just thought I'd mention it.  

 

- He agrees that the shipping charge on the SS is ridiculous, but that if I buy it in the store they will ship it to the store for free and they will personally load it and secure it into my truck, so I'd only have to unload it at my house.  Again, not worth much to me - no way am I going through the hassle.  I've learned that the hard way.  I need it shipped to my door.

 

- The annual SS promotion started today where if you buy a PCS (but NOT an ICS for some frustrating reason) they will throw in the mobile base or the dust collection arm for free.  

 

So I'm kind of back to the drawing board here.  Maybe I should consider the PCS as well.  The PM sale doesn't end until 3/10, so theoretically I have a couple more weeks to think about it.

 

Also, on the shop class discussion - my father in law retired last year from teaching shop for over 30 years.  The program shut down after he left because they didn't have a replacement teacher.  He loves teaching and is still more than capable physically (he still builds furniture and renovation projects for people), but he retired because he felt that the kids were paying attention to him less every year, and that it was only a matter of time before there was an accident because the kids wouldn't listen to his instruction.  He takes IMMENSE pride in the fact that he never had a single accident in his class either himself or his students, and he said he would never forgive himself if he let a kid get hurt, so he felt it was time to go.  Really sad.  

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While the PM2000 and the ICS may be beefier saws than the PCS, I'd be shocked if the PCS (or the Grizzly) weren't beefy enough. Depending on what you're planning on doing with it, anything beyond a certain level is overkill.  Blade selection and alignment are the determining factors in the end performance.  Since budget is part of the logic in your decision, I'd either grab a Grizzly cabinet saw to get the most bang for my buck, or would go for the PCS and get the safety feature that happens to come on a great saw.  

This right here says all that needs to be said on the subject!

 

Personally for me I've been using a table saw for 35 plus years and my next one will be the sawstop. I've been putting it oof since my current saw was a present from my wife and there isn't room for two saws in the workshop.

 

Right now I've settled on the sawstop contractor version as this would mount on my existing mobile base I made for the Ridgid TS3650. I've never wanted for more power even when ripping 8/4 pecan as knotscott has stated all you need is the proper blade.

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Watch that video, that tells me that the shop teacher has no real understanding of power tools.  One thing I remember my shop teacher in 7th grade saying is that the most severe injury he had ever had in class was a splinter.  This was because he grilled safety into everyone of his students, and I have been amazed at how much of that I remember 25 years later.  I remember using the table saw, band saw, 12" RAS in that class.  About the only machines he didn't let us use was the planer and the shaper.  The planer, I think it was because it was the most expensive machine in the shop and he was afraid one of us would damage it.  The shaper, well, I can remember him telling us it was too dangerous for us to use.

 

Do I think school shops should have a sawstop, yes, it does seem common sense.  But I believe it should be the goal of the shop teacher that the brake never gets fired, as he will still drive safety in his class lessons, as my shop teach did.  I think the shop teacher in that video was not doing his job, and should be taking some classes himself before he has anymore students exposed to injury.

 

For my own shop, I don't know if I will buy a sawstop or not.  Since 220 isn't an option for me, the PM1000 is looking like a real nice option as well.

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Wow, so many great responses!  I really appreciate everyone's help.  I actually just got back from Rockler.  No - I haven't made a purchase.  I mainly went because I thought they had a PM2000 on the floor for me to look at (turns out they didn't).  I spent a while there talking to the sales guy.  As I would expect, he gave me a big pitch on SawStop.  He was very respectful and nice about it - none of the "you're an idiot if you don't buy a sawstop" attitude.  Here is a summary of what he said:

 

- He spent a great deal of time on the fit and finish.  They had a 3HP PCS set up at the store, and he basically took it apart for me.  Said all the details are extremely well engineered.  When asked about the weight difference, he said that he finds it hard to believe the PCS is that much lighter than a PM2000 (he said he's personally unloaded both a PCS and a Unisaw from a truck and that there's no appreciable difference in weight).  He said any weight difference would be due to the cast iron in the actual cabinet of the PM2000, whereas the PCS is stamped steel.

 

- Said that the PM2000 3HP motor is more powerful than the PCS 3HP even though they're rated the same.  He said he's not sure why that is, but he noticed it and said most people that he talks to have noticed it as well.

 

- Said the ICS is "a lot of saw" - with a tone that seemed to imply I didn't need it as a hobbyist.  I don't like that but I'm used to hearing it at basically every store I go to.  

 

- Said the fence system is better on the SS because the rails are heavier duty, connected better to the saw (bigger/beefier bolts) and the fence faces are easily replaceable.

 

- Said the dust collection on the SS is a huge step up from the PM2000.  He said he's not sure why because it's a similar design, but the SS is doing something that makes the dust route better to the hose.

 

- Said for what it's worth, he hasn't sold a PM2000 table saw in years, whereas he sells a SS at least once a week.  This obviously is worth nothing to me, just thought I'd mention it.  

 

- He agrees that the shipping charge on the SS is ridiculous, but that if I buy it in the store they will ship it to the store for free and they will personally load it and secure it into my truck, so I'd only have to unload it at my house.  Again, not worth much to me - no way am I going through the hassle.  I've learned that the hard way.  I need it shipped to my door.

 

- The annual SS promotion started today where if you buy a PCS (but NOT an ICS for some frustrating reason) they will throw in the mobile base or the dust collection arm for free.  

 

So I'm kind of back to the drawing board here.  Maybe I should consider the PCS as well.  The PM sale doesn't end until 3/10, so theoretically I have a couple more weeks to think about it.

 

Also, on the shop class discussion - my father in law retired last year from teaching shop for over 30 years.  The program shut down after he left because they didn't have a replacement teacher.  He loves teaching and is still more than capable physically (he still builds furniture and renovation projects for people), but he retired because he felt that the kids were paying attention to him less every year, and that it was only a matter of time before there was an accident because the kids wouldn't listen to his instruction.  He takes IMMENSE pride in the fact that he never had a single accident in his class either himself or his students, and he said he would never forgive himself if he let a kid get hurt, so he felt it was time to go.  Really sad.

Wow, so many great responses!  I really appreciate everyone's help.  I actually just got back from Rockler.  No - I haven't made a purchase.  I mainly went because I thought they had a PM2000 on the floor for me to look at (turns out they didn't).  I spent a while there talking to the sales guy.  As I would expect, he gave me a big pitch on SawStop.  He was very respectful and nice about it - none of the "you're an idiot if you don't buy a sawstop" attitude.  Here is a summary of what he said:

 

- He spent a great deal of time on the fit and finish.  They had a 3HP PCS set up at the store, and he basically took it apart for me.  Said all the details are extremely well engineered.  When asked about the weight difference, he said that he finds it hard to believe the PCS is that much lighter than a PM2000 (he said he's personally unloaded both a PCS and a Unisaw from a truck and that there's no appreciable difference in weight).  He said any weight difference would be due to the cast iron in the actual cabinet of the PM2000, whereas the PCS is stamped steel.

 

- Said that the PM2000 3HP motor is more powerful than the PCS 3HP even though they're rated the same.  He said he's not sure why that is, but he noticed it and said most people that he talks to have noticed it as well.

 

- Said the ICS is "a lot of saw" - with a tone that seemed to imply I didn't need it as a hobbyist.  I don't like that but I'm used to hearing it at basically every store I go to.  

 

- Said the fence system is better on the SS because the rails are heavier duty, connected better to the saw (bigger/beefier bolts) and the fence faces are easily replaceable.

 

- Said the dust collection on the SS is a huge step up from the PM2000.  He said he's not sure why because it's a similar design, but the SS is doing something that makes the dust route better to the hose.

 

- Said for what it's worth, he hasn't sold a PM2000 table saw in years, whereas he sells a SS at least once a week.  This obviously is worth nothing to me, just thought I'd mention it.  

 

- He agrees that the shipping charge on the SS is ridiculous, but that if I buy it in the store they will ship it to the store for free and they will personally load it and secure it into my truck, so I'd only have to unload it at my house.  Again, not worth much to me - no way am I going through the hassle.  I've learned that the hard way.  I need it shipped to my door.

 

- The annual SS promotion started today where if you buy a PCS (but NOT an ICS for some frustrating reason) they will throw in the mobile base or the dust collection arm for free.  

 

So I'm kind of back to the drawing board here.  Maybe I should consider the PCS as well.  The PM sale doesn't end until 3/10, so theoretically I have a couple more weeks to think about it.

 

Also, on the shop class discussion - my father in law retired last year from teaching shop for over 30 years.  The program shut down after he left because they didn't have a replacement teacher.  He loves teaching and is still more than capable physically (he still builds furniture and renovation projects for people), but he retired because he felt that the kids were paying attention to him less every year, and that it was only a matter of time before there was an accident because the kids wouldn't listen to his instruction.  He takes IMMENSE pride in the fact that he never had a single accident in his class either himself or his students, and he said he would never forgive himself if he let a kid get hurt, so he felt it was time to go.  Really sad.

He is a salesman and told you what he needed to sell the higher profit saw. If he actually knew anything about the pm 2k he would know that the dust hose is to small from the factory and needs a little piece of bigger hose to make it the same as the ss ics. The fences on both saws are the same and come out of the same factory both have easily removable faces. The base of the pm is a mobile base but tones down any vibration in the cabinet while eliminating the wobbly base of a regular mobile base after the wheels are lifted. The pm is closer to the ices than the pcs. The pm3000 smokes them all hands down and that is a lot of saw but the ics is just a basic cabinet saw very far from industrial just like the pm2k.

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I hear you guys. He did say that the PM3000 is a fantastic saw that is head and shoulders above either SS model. But he said the PM2000 can't hang with SawStop.

He is full of it the pm 2k is nearly the same saw without the brake. Don't get caught up in the sales bs. It's all about the brake. You either need it or you don't otherwise the saws ics and pm are on par with each other.

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Bgreenb, Good luck to you with your decision. I don't see you making a mistake either way.

I do this for a living, and the last new table saw I bought was a Powermatic 62 in 1974. It's still used as the number 2 saw when we need to use more than one. Number one is a 20 year old Unisaw.

Talking about school shops, I understand our High School had a really good one. I never even looked in the door. I only started doing this for a living after getting out of college, working for three months, and decided that I didn't want to be an employee.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Fellas,

I wanted to check back in, having made my purchase. I figure someone in the future might be doing research and refer to this thread; maybe they'll want to know how it turned out. My new saw actually arrived today, though I'm at work and counting the minutes until I can get home and start assembling it.

I first want to thank everyone for chiming in here. Hearing all the different opinions helped immensely. My wife often complains that I ask her opinion and then ignore it, but I always tell her that the conversation always helps me even if I don't listen to her (she doesn't buy it, but that's another story).

Anyway, I ended up going with the SawStop PCS 3HP, 36inch T glide fence (http://www.amazon.com/SawStop-PCS31230-TGP236-Professional-Assembly-Extension/dp/B009C7NGTE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395078516&sr=8-1&keywords=sawstop+36"), which wasn't either of the two options I was considering at the beginning of this thread.

The reason I eliminated the ICS was mainly price. I simply couldn't justify it, for a few reasons. First, for some reason SawStop doesn't run the "free accessory" promotion on the ICS, and since in my opinion you need both the mobile base and dust collection arm, that adds $500 to the price right off the bat. In addition, you can only order the ICS from a dealer in person, so I would be stuck paying in-state sales tax, which added another $300 or so. When it all came down to it, I was over $5000, and I simply couldn't justify spending the money for a hobby, especially since there are other tools that I'd like to use my tool budget on in the next couple of years (drum sander, new/bigger bandsaw, etc.)

So that narrowed it down to the PM2000 and the SawStop PCS. I heard everyone loud and clear that the quality of the saw is not the same, and that the proper comparison is with the ICS, and I buy the explanation. So for me it really came down to the safety feature, which shouldn't come as a surprise. While I could see the PM2000 being possibly a step up in quality, we're still talking about two of the best options in the 3HP range, and I figure that if at some point I decide I need to step up, the PCS really holds its value well.

As I said earlier in the thread - I trust myself using the saw. I trust my technique and cautiousness and control. But I would like to get my kids in the shop someday, and I'd be a nervous wreck letting them use the saw even with my supervision and my teaching them proper technique. Obviously the SawStop doesn't protect against kickback related injuries, but if I can minimize/negate the risk of losing digits, I'd like to do that. And even with myself, I'm only human, and mistakes happen. I've been in a couple of at-fault car accidents in my life even though I consider myself a skilled and careful driver - $@%T happens. I realize this is a highly personal choice, and I can only express what went into my own decision. No disrespect (obviously) to anyone who goes in a different direction.

When I combined that with the PCS promotion and ability to order online, the price difference between the PCS and the PM2000 wasn't as great as I expected, so I pulled the trigger.

As I said, the saw arrived today, so I'm hoping/expecting to have it up and running by the weekend. I will report back with my first impressions on using the saw.

Thanks again everyone who replied.

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Good for you, hope you enjoy the saw.  They saw woodworking is an expensive hobby, and it is.  But a new $3,000 saw can give you just as much joy as a new car or truck costing 10 or 20x that amount so put in perspective it is a cheap thrill! 

 

I don't have experience with the cabinet saw, but my sawstop contractor saw was relatively easy to set up, and that includes assembling most of the base (which i don't think you will need to do).  So you should have it up and running in no time. 

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congrats on the new saw B. I know it's a tough process to pick one but it looks like you put a lot of thought into it. Frankly I think you ended up picking from two "winners" so you almost couldn't go wrong. I have that same saw and I've been very pleased with it, and I'm sure you will be too.

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Good Choice!
 

I've had a SawStop Industrial Saw for 8 years. If anything happened to it, I'd buy the same one tomorrow. However, having been using this thing heavily for the last 8 years I doubt I will ever need to buy another. It is tough as a boiled owl!

 

I have been woodworking for 25 years now. I consider myself a safety freak. I go out of my way to be safe. I do all the "right things" you are supposed to do. Plan my cuts ahead of time, build jigs, think through everything, get enough sleep, etc...

In 25 years I've never had a kickback. But a couple of years ago I set off my SawStop. Ignore anyone who tells you SawStops are only for people who don't know what they are doing. (I've heard that 100's of times.) Just smile and crack your knuckles... ALL OF THEM.

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In 25 years I've never had a kickback. But a couple of years ago I set off my SawStop. Ignore anyone who tells you SawStops are only for people who don't know what they are doing. (I've heard that 100's of times.) Just smile and crack your knuckles... ALL OF THEM.

Wow! Glad you escaped unscathed. Care to share any detail on exactly what happened?

(I'm still setting up the saw - had some things come up at work that I've had to deal with and have eaten into my playtime. I expect to have it up and running this weekend and will report back with my initial thoughts!)

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I had a kickback years ago (on a previous saw) and it scared the bejeezus out of me.  Remember - riving knives and good push blocks are your friends with *any* saw.  I have not "set off" my SS in 4+ years, but I never second guess my choice. 

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Congrats on the new saw. My next saw will be a SS, at least I'm reasonably certain it will.

 

Completely aside from the saw debate, I appreciate all of the safety discussion on this thread. I've had my second-hand Ridgid for about a year now. During most of that time, I've used it without a splitter. The factory splitter is huge, shaky and doesn't really line up well with the blade. (this is a pre-riving knife model). 

 

Figured I'd add a micro jig splitter to it at some point, but had it on the "at some point" list.With all of the safety discussion on this thread, I finally ordered the splitter. Thanks.

 

And congrats again on the new saw.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I just got my SawStop professional 3hp 52" after narrowing the selection down to it and PM2000. Tried getting a used saw for 2 years but saws were selling super fast on CL. I had a buddy help me bring the saw home and unpack. I was super impressed with the packaging. It is well thought and allowed us to put the mobile base and stand up the saw with ease. The instructions are awesome and they nice enough to include metric Allen wrenches (I didn't have any). Used the saw a little bit and love it, feeling stupid for not getting it sooner. Then I started assembling my PM1300 dust collector. I paid good money for it but after putting the SS together the powermatic DC just sucked. They put all the bolts, nuts, washers etc in one bag! I had to sort everything before I can start. A blister pack would've been much better (cheap put-together Walmart furniture comes with blister packs). Assembly wasn't bad and I like the tool. Ironically the assembly required a 5mm Allen wrench, I ended up using the one that came with the sawstop since I didn't have any. Overall I'm very happy with the combo. Also a friend of mine wants to come over and bring some hot dogs to test the brake system, I won't let him mess with my precious :)

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