ScoFF Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Can someone give me a decent summary between the different types of hand saws? Bad Axe lists more choices than I had thought. Dovetail saw – self explanatory 10” carcase 12” hybrid DT/small tenon 12” carcase 14” sash 16” tenon 18” large tenon Say I eventually wanted 3 saws, keep in mind I have a large assortment of power tools and mostly prefer to use them: 1 small dedicated dovetail (just because) 1 larger saw to crosscut random pieces, from small ½” thick 2” wide scraps to 1” thick 6” wide boards (when I don’t want to use my tablesaw just to cut off a board). 16” large tenon? Filed crosscut? 1 saw to do mostly odd rip cuts for tenon (2” deep max) and also smaller finer cheek cuts. This would likely be a dual purpose fine cut saw. 12” hybrid DT/small tenon? X-cut or hybrid, not sure. Teeth count, no idea. I have no intention of ripping anything big, I have a good bandsaw for that. I appreciate using hand tools and want my hand skills to improve throughout my experience. For the majority of dimensioning I would mostly use my table saw or mitre saw. Sometimes I like to make finer cuts or crosscut when my tablesaw is set up for something or is covered in crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Hello Bob, If joinery is what you want to do get a 14 tennon for ripping, 12 carcase for shoulders and a DT saw rip filed. I would also add a cheap hardpoint contractor handsaw for crosscutting. They can be purchased in a fine tooth pattern and will last a really long time. I have a feeling you will have may contrasting opinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 The length of your arms also comes into play. Shannon is a taller guy, so he takes longer blades. I'm a shorter guy: the 18 I tried kinked on me because I was pushing too much metal through it. I have a bigbox jobsite/toolbox saw for basic and quick crosscutting - around 12 inches. Any longer, and I'd be doubling my time cutting. (I also haven't tackled more than 6/4 with it, so I don't know the full capabilities or limitations.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 This is so open-ended that you're going to get dozens of polar-opposite responses. Ask any ten woodworkers for a list of 'must have' saws and you're going to get eleven (more like twenty) answers... If you're looking at BadAxeTools(BAT), then you probably already know they keep their resale value quite well... So you're first set of saws may not be your last (read as -- it won't)... There are really no bad choices if your purchasing quality --- you can always sell a quality saw to fund one with a better fit... A huge factor is the type of projects you want to execute and the size/scale of your work... I've got fifteen [maybe] twenty back saws at the moment. I'm committed to get below eight as I progress towards tool anarchy... ==>1 small dedicated dovetail (just because) If you want to hand-cut lots of dovetails, then a dedicated dovetail saw is [almost] a must... Please note: there's no magic about saws -- you don't need a dedicated dovetailer to cut nice dovetails... It's all a series of trade-offs. Chris Schwarz did a very interesting piece on cutting dovetails with a panel saw... As you pointed-out, BAT offers a hybrid dovetail/small tenon saw. This is a excellent starter saw -- I believe Mark's recommendation is to get this saw when learning to cut dovetails until you gain more experience and opt for a dedicated dovetailer. Actually, Chris Schwarz has a blog post on just this subject -- his recommendation is to get a carcass saw and learn how to use it... The reason for both: there's a continuing trend to make high-quality dovetail saws with a very thin plate. It's quite easy to kink the saw until you develop proper technique and muscle memory... My personal recommendation is the BAT hybrid and switch to the Gramercy 9" dovetail or LN's PP when you need the dedicated dovetail saw.... I happen to have both along with BAT's dovetailer... My favorite at the moment is Gramercy, but I use the LN-PP when I gang-cut dovetails... Actually, scratch that -- I just grab what's sitting on the bench... ==>1 saw to do mostly odd rip cuts for tenon (2” deep max) and also smaller finer cheek cuts. If you get the BAT small hybrid saw, you can dovetail and smaller tenons. I've got the saw and it's an excellent piece of kit that normally lives on my bench for [almost] all small rips... Very useful if you gang cut... I usually do, so I use this saw often... Once you get to 2", you're going to want a carcass saw -- see below... For general small work around the bench, I'd get a pair of carcass saws. Carcass saws are the 'goto' saws in most hybrid workflows... They are light, nimble and extremely handy. Again, these are the most common 'goto' saw for bench work when not dovetailing... You could get a single carcass saw filed hybrid and save $200. I've got LN's pair, a pair from Gramercy and a pair from BAT. All are excellent. The only real decision is taper or not. I've got both styles. Up to you. There are pros/cons to each (but from the mag reviews, you sure wouldn't know it -- wonder how that happens?)... Taper is 'sexy' at the moment, but there's some underlying soft marketing money at work -- we'll just leave it at that... I also keep a small/fine (10"/15tpi) xCut saw on the bench for small-scale work... Comes in handy --- actually it's one of the most useful saws in my shop and may get more use than all the others combined... BAT has a nice one and so does LN. ==>1 larger saw to crosscut random pieces Depends on what you mean by large. Gramercy's sash is not quite a 'large' backsaw, but it's not exactly small either. If you get it filed hybrid, it handles xCuts and rips well... I rarely need the use of anything larger (but I happen to have three -- go figure). I've got a BAT Roubo Beastmaster (with a name like that, I just had to have one), and two vintage Disstons.... I'll probably eBay the BAT... LN used to sell some 12" tenon saws -- those were extremely popular and handle most anything that folks consider 'large'. Search eBay for those, but they are discontinued so be prepared to pay a premium... After the PP dovetailer, the 12" tenon saws in xCut and rip may have been LN's best seller. ==>I have no intention of ripping anything bigThen I'd avoid the large tenon saws... While cool, the 16"/18" saws can be a bit much and they tend to have thin plates. For the beginner, it can get away from you... Again, Chris Schwarz has a tail about beginners and thin-plate saws...So if you want four or five backsaws and have decided to avoid anything large, I'd go:Gramercy dovetail or BAT dovetail/tenon hydrid -- 9" or 10" A small xCut saw for finer work - nine inch, 15/16 tpi A pair of carcass saws or a top-shelf hybrid -- somewhere between 10" and 12" And something like a sash saw filed hybrid -- 14". Skip the large backsaw until you actually need it on a project (which you probably won't unless you spend lots of time making dining room tables)... And even more rare -- need both a rip and xCut... If you've got to have a large saw to fill-out your till, then spend the $$ for a good hybrid... Now, I've only talked about three brands and vintage... There are many more excellent brands available --- I've got examples from a couple of them, but I mention just three --- why? It's how they 'feel' in my hands... That's huge... It's more important than any other factor... When I approach my saw till, you can tell which saws get the most use by looking at the handles -- the handles on these three brands are well used -- not that the others aren't great saws -- but these 'feel right' in my hands... They might not feel right in yours... The other major factor is weight/balance. I happen to like a light saw -- some don't. Gramercy makes very light saws -- maybe the lightest available --- some folks think they are 'whippy'' and complain about the balance. To make such a light saw and still have proper balance, the plates tend to be narrower and thinner than others. LN and BAT are noticeably heavier, but still on the light side. Go to a show and demo everything in site -- it's the only way to decide.... About vintage... I'm a big fan of vintage, but I've got a Ace up my sleeve... My Grandfather took very good care of his tools, so I got vintage without all the work associated with going vintage... There are entire websites dedicated to vintage saws -- check them out... BTW -- get at least one cheap vintage Disston on eBay -- go all in and spend $10... then get a decent saw vice (Joel makes one of the best) and a couple of files... Practice sharpening on the 'eBay special'... After you've filed it about ten times, you'll be ready for your top-shelf kit... Final note -- hybrid filing. I'm a big fan of hybrid filing. As my skill with backsaws increased, I just started to use whatever saw was handy on the bench for the task at hand... OK, I don't use the Beastmaster to cut dovetails, but you get the idea... Again, there's nothing magic about saws -- you don't have to use a xCut saw to make crosscuts -- it helps, but it's not required... OK, for dovetails, rip filing is really handy and so is PP, but for more general tasks around the bench, it doesn't much matter after you get some experience. For show joints, it's kind of nice to have a dedicated xCut and use a 1st class sawcut... That's why I recommend both the rip and xCut carcass saw, but once you get larger than a carcass saw, go hybrid... One final thought on hybrid filing.... My saw sharpening is nothing to be proud of... It doesn't matter if I file rip or xCut -- the saw ends-up hybrid. I've only recently started sharpening my own saws, so my lack of experience shows... When folks look closely at my saws, I just claim hybrid filing and stick to my story... Note: there is some subtly here... Hand-filing a saw involves error -- you can't avoid it -- well I can't. Some embrace the error and make it work to their advantage -- hybrid saws can save you a bunch of $$. A great reference on saws was just published by Chris Schwarz: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/handsaw-essentials-now-shop-k-help-prove-didnt-waste-170-hours -- well worth the read... Good luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 I've got fifteen [maybe] twenty back saws at the moment. Go see a doctor, dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 ==>Go see a doctor, dude.Go see a doctor, dude. Yea, no sh*t... For years, I just purchased tools that I happened to like -- and I never met a tool I didn't like... Shows were my downfall... I'm in the process of shedding unused tools -- New Year's resolution -- eBay at least a hundred tools over the coming year. I've made a pretty good dent so far, but I've got a long way to go... One thing that's interesting -- I've got lots of LN tools that are no longer in production. I've sold several for way more than I payed... So far, I'm actually ahead of the game -- or at least I try to convince myself of that... I've also got some of my Grandfather's Disston saws... So it tends to skew the count a bit... It's not like I'm going to sell them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 I was gonna say...if you were gonna sell that LN PP DT to let me know before you auctioned it...but I didn't even think that the discontinued tools do probably go for more on ebay. Stupid of me considering my occupation. Supply and demand in its most boiled down essence. Do you have one of the thin plate DT's? I've been wanting something for fine (fine) work in thinner boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 Actually, I've got both the 9" PP (rare) and the 10" PP (discontinued). I'm going to sell one of them... When I do, I'll PM you. While off topic, I was at a show and had a really interesting discussion with LN about why he's discontinuing certain tools -- even tools considered 'best in class' -- for example, the PP dovetailer... I mean Chris Schwarz spent years writing article after article about why this was the best dovetailer ever made... So why stop selling it? The answer makes perfect sense -- basic B-school -- market churn. I know one guy who sold his 9" PP in cocobolo for $400. I heard about one sale of a similar saw new-in-box for $500. I had a rare LN/Independence dovetailer in Maple that sold for $380. I think I paid $125. Go figure... ==>Do you have one of the thin plate DT's Not yet Actually that's not quite true -- I've got a pair of extremely fine LN/Independence thin-plate gents saws in cocobolo... Those are really rare and I know I could get over $400 for them... They almost never go up on eBay -- folks know what they have and keep them. I don't use them often, but for small boxes the 16ppi is really handy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted April 24, 2014 Report Share Posted April 24, 2014 I'm delighted to seem some more advice. Makes my post seem a little brief! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 ==>Makes my post seem a little brief! Yea, that's what happens when I stay up too late... After midnight, my posts just tend to ramble... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 Do you think a Bad Axe 16" Large Tenon Saw is to big to start out with? I was considering getting this in the future filed as a Hybrid. I don't want to buy 2-3 saws out of the gate. I only have a Veritas Dovetail saw now. How about the 14" Sash saw filed Hybrid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 26, 2014 Report Share Posted April 26, 2014 ==>Do you think a Bad Axe 16" Large Tenon Saw is to big to start out with? Ahhhh, now the fun starts! This is one of those questions where you're going to get lots of different viewpoints. If you've got little/no sawing experience, then a tenon saw is not a great place to start. If you've got some reasonable experience, then it's an OK place to start, but I'll make my pitch for the sash saw later... The wide plate on a 16" tenon saw improves feedback to the sawyer when cutting tenon cheeks. However, it comes at increased risk of kinking. You can get Mark's tenon saw in a couple of plate thicknesses. With experience, the thin plate version will out-perform the thicker plate -- there's very little argument on that point.. However, not much is written about the downside ---- the combination of a wide, long and thin plate carries an increased risk of kinking... If you're a new sawyer, you can get a thicker plate to minimize potential kinking, but then you're leaving some performance on the table. If you're buying LN, BAT, et al, then there's not much down-side. You can get the thick plate now and simply sell it and put the $$ toward a thin plate as you gain experience... Note: want to be clear -- a thick-plate tenon saw will perform extremely well -- it's just that the thin-plate will perform a bit better. Note: this also true of the thin-plate dovetailers... They're all the rage at the moment, but some are offering ridiculously thin plates. With all the current blog/mag reviews, folks are flocking to get one -- but the ultra-thin plates come at an increased risk of kinking -- especially if you gang-cut. My thinnest-plate dovetail saw is .018 --- which is certainly thin, but not compared to some offerings. I've seen some in .013 which I think is ridiculous for anything except small boxes...==>How about the 14" Sash saw filed Hybrid? Here's another one of those questions where lots of folks will disagree... Personally, I find the sash to be a great size and extremely useful. Unfortunately, the sash saw really doesn't get much press because a couple of very influential hand-tool pundits have written extensively on the benefits of wide-plates (found on the 16"/18" tenon saw).... While I do buy into the wide-plate argument, the flip side is that the large tenon saw is a big beast and most of the time folks are not cutting large tenons so don't need the extra depth... I just happen to prefer smaller and more nimble saws, so I reach for a sash saw for most tenon cheeks. I happen to have Gramercy's in hybrid filing. It rips and xCuts very well. Recently, the sash saw just doesn't get a lot of love because many pundits consider it an 'odd size'. Most experienced sawyers (read as 99%) agree about the need for a carcass saw (12") and a tenon saw(16"). Many feel the 14" sash is kind of a strange cousin. Note on hybrid shops: While most experienced sawyers agree about the need for a dedicated tenon saw, the need softens for 'hybrid' woodworkers. I'm not really a hand-tool-guy. I've got hand tools (if you ask my wife, I have far too many hand-tools), I use them on just about every project and I'm just competent enough in their use to get by --- but that doesn't make me a hand-tool guy... I'm far to the power-tool side of a hybrid workflow -- I use a TS and/or SCMS for the vast majority of my crosscuts and a TS/Bandsaw for the vast majority of my rips... I use saws primarily for joinery, not breaking-down stock, et al... With that being said, there is a discussion around the preference for a dedicated tenon saw over a sash saw in the hybrid woodworking shop. Many maintain that in a power-centric shop, the sash saw may be a better fit... Especially if the majority of projects are on smaller-scale and don't require robust joinery... This is why I always say that my recommendations depend on the size/type of your projects... If you never make a tenon larger then 1.5", then the need for a full-sized tenon saw is reduced. Some still like the feedback of the wide plate and use a tenon saw anyway, but some recommend getting a sash saw first, then evaluate the need for a full sized tenon saw if/when the need arises... That's really my position. I've got several tenon saws and almost never use them. They are going to be the first to go in my journey toward tool anarchy. If I used a hand-tool-only workflow, that would certainly change... Note on hybrid filing: currently hybrid filing isn't offered by every saw company, but as the talking heads start doing their thing, I bet almost everyone will offer one in the next twelve months. I've only got experience with BAT and Garmercy's hybrid saws --- they perform extremely well, so the talking heads have lots to crow about. Both hybrid offerings will crosscut and rip almost as well as their purpose-filed brethren. However, these are high-end, hand-made and hand-filed saws costing anywhere from $300 to $400 and, most importantly, each individual saw is actually tested before it leaves Mark's or Joel's shop. When the big players announce their 'revolutionary' hybrid saws, do yourself a favor and try before you buy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Thanks for writing that Triple H. I am definitely not a hand tool user full time and I am new. I like my power tools especially a table saw! Sounds like the Sash Saw while not necessarily popular might be a good choice for my needs. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 ==>^^^Before you spend your cash, I'd try to get to a show and try a few to see if you like feel of the saw... One advantage of going BAT, LN, et al is if you don't like the saw you can sell it for about 90% of your purchase price... So there's not much downside risk... Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoFF Posted May 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Thanks for the replies, but I think it comes down to testing a lineup to see what works best for me. I'm in Canada so testing BAT tools would be difficult but a blind mail order was what I was trying to avoid. I wasn't sure about the point of a sash saw, I googled it and it just mentioned doors and window sashes. Is it shaped differently (handle, angle) than the smaller tenon or carcase? I'm looking at smaller detail work or even just to crosscut/mitre ends of smaller workpieces, likely with a bench hook jig which is why I was thinking a pair of carcase saws, one files rip and the other xcut, or just a hybrid. I have the pair of veritas carcase saws and wanted to upgrade. I was aiming at 10-14" sizes for both. Then sash saw came up and I got confused. I'd hate to spend $300 on a hybrid sash saw all-purpose and then get the itch for a pair of dedicated carcase saws leaving the sash redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Here is some info on the sash saw. http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/14-inch-Sash-tenon-back-saw.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Do you think a Bad Axe 16" Large Tenon Saw is to big to start out with? I was considering getting this in the future filed as a Hybrid. I don't want to buy 2-3 saws out of the gate. I only have a Veritas Dovetail saw now. How about the 14" Sash saw filed Hybrid? A 14" hybrid will be a very versatile saw for a lot of tenon work. I've had a Hybrid filed BA 12" for quite a while and did all my backsaw work with it. Just recently added a 16" hybrid for larger tenons etc. Not sure that this helps a lot but if you have a DT already then 14" would be a good choice for just about everything else you'd want to do with a backsaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 ==>I'd hate to spend $300 on a hybrid sash saw all-purpose and then get the itch for a pair of dedicated carcase saws leaving the sash redundant. That's one of the reasons a sash doesn't get a lot of love... As previously posted, most agree that the tenon and carcass saws are 'must have' -- however one defines 'must have', so the sash is a bit of a 'tweener'. However, the sash is really right in the sweet-spot for full-sized furniture. Let's assume you work primarily on full-sized furniture -- occasional tables, coffee tables, kitchen sets, dining sets, etc -- not concentrating on decorative boxes or beds -- in other words, the middle ground. Let's also assume you have the budget for top-shelf saws, but you don't want to over-buy or end-up with a bunch of saws you don't use. My recommended saw sets: Three: dovetail - rip (or large dovetail hybrid); carcass - hybrid and tenon - hybrid Four: above plus sash - hybrid; OR substitute hybrid carcass for dedicated rip and crosscut carcass Five: dovetail; rip & crosscut carcass; hybrid sash; hybrid tenon Six: above plus dedicated rip tenon (probably a sash saw filed rip) or an 18" tenon if you're building mostly large pieces. Now were talking top-shelf hybrid, so we're not limiting ourselves much on budget... You could certainly spend less and get the dedicated rip and crosscut versions from LN/Veritas/etc, but you'd have almost double the number of saws. Want to get back to one of my points -- there are very few bad decisions in this space. If you end-up with a saw you don't like, you can sell it for 90% of what you paid and/or Joel/Mark will refile it for you -- I think Mark even gives you a year guarantee where he'll re-contour/file the teeth for a nominal fee... It's hard to go wrong. Actually, let me amend that -- the only way to go wrong is if you wife figures-out you just spent $350 on a saw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I wouldn’t worry about the hybrid sash being redundant when (notice when not if ) you get the hankering for more saws. It just means you can go a bit between sharpening or not worry about a dull saw in the middle of a project.* *great rationalization that can go a long way before hitting the law of diminishing returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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