Maumee Mike Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Recently I have been having issues with the dust collector as it will run for 10 minutes and then shut off and will not restart for about 10 minutes. According to the manual this could be caused by the motor overheating which in turn is caused by leaks. Well I've checked over and over and am very confident there are no leaks. I called the Oneida service department and after a day of not hearing from them they finally called. When I explained to the service rep the problem she then literally read from the manual which I happened to have handy. They were of course no help other than to tell me the collector was out of warranty. They did get me names of companies in our area who work on the Baldor motor. I've called one of them and he really did not have an interest since it was not a three phase motor. I was wondering if anyone who owns this collector ever had these issues thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike M Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 I will assume that you actually touched the motor after it shut down to see if it was really hot. It is possible that the sensor for the motor temp is failing even though the motor is normal temperature. The Baldor service companies should be able to supply a replacement. You should also check to see if there is normal airflow. Reduced airflow from a clogged duct or filter system would increase the load on the motor causing it to run hotter. Pleated filters have a limited life because fine particles of dust fill up the pores of the filter. Compressed air from the outside can dislodge some of this dust. I found that the filter on my Grizzly system got clogged to the point I couldn't get decent airflow and had to replace it. This was after about 5 years. Working with oily exotic wood didn't help. I don't see how leaks in the system would cause the motor to overheat. Leaks would reduce the load on the motor since there would be less resistance to moving air. Let us know the outcome. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevmc Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 I have read that a system uses the least power when all blast gates are closed and that running a cyclone with no pipes or all blast gates open increases the risk of overheating so if that is the case having a bunch of leaks could do it however I have a hard time believing you would have so many leaks as to overheat the motor. Maybe get an infrared thermometer and monitor the motor for ten minutes. If it's not the sensor could you have a bad bearing that is contributing to the heat problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Cannot access schematics so this may have no merit. I just replaced a relay in an irrigation system. The 24v coil in the remote contactor for the 220v pump must have had a temp sensitive short so that after ten minutes of operation it would open, close, open, close every few seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 ==>^^^ I was just typing my 2c, when you got there at just about the same instant... Great minds and all that... Who's controls? and of what type? Could very easily be either the MC and/or CI. For quite a few years, Oneida was selling high-end controls with adjustable overload set-points... These are great, but it's also a point of potential failure... If the motor's not overheating, then either the sensor in the motor is flaky or it's the the controls. However, most overload sensors need to be manually reset and not automatically as you describe... This leads me to believe it's the MS as SC outlined above... I'll also throw this out: For quite a few years, I had the CI overload set-point adjusted just slightly above the nominal load... It's a slow-blow, so inrush was fine... Worked AOK for five or maybe 10 years, then I got the occasional trip... There really wasn't much wrong, it's just the motor's efficiency had degraded every so slightly over the course of time... I adjusted the set-point about 1/2a higher and haven't had an issue in years. Based on your description, your system must be fairly old... I believe Oneida stopped providing Baldor motors in their smaller units quite some time ago... So it could be a similar 'problem'. Is your unit from their 'Small Commercial' line? If so, I bet your unit is over ten years old and the controls have an adjustable CI set-point... Do you have a VOM or similar kit? BTW: do you have a remote key-fob starter and/or an Ecco-gate type of setup? If so, I'd check those first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Just a thought - for what it's worth. You might consider disconnecting your main duct from your cyclone and removing your dust collector and then turn your machine on. That might narrow your search down to a motor problem or something clogged. I did this to my cyclone yesterday when it started making a whinning noise and found the noise was caused my the chip collector bag in the drum. Sure scared me at first. I saw $$$ being spent for a repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Good idea for a quick debug, but be careful how long you do this... I've got an Oneida Commercial unit from what I'm betting is a similar vintage... If his setup is anything like mine, the design assumes load and the manual states in many places that the unit shouldn't be run without connections... You'll burn-out the motor pretty fast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keggers Posted July 4, 2014 Report Share Posted July 4, 2014 Good idea for a quick debug, but be careful how long you do this... I've got an Oneida Commercial unit from what I'm betting is a similar vintage... If his setup is anything like mine, the design assumes load and the manual states in many places that the unit shouldn't be run without connections... You'll burn-out the motor pretty fast... Good point.. And he said it took about 10 minutes to shut down. Better strike my suggestion from your options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2014 I ran the collector and quit after 5 minutes..got up and felt the motor and it did not feel warm at all...beginning to wonder if it's the motor after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 6, 2014 Report Share Posted July 6, 2014 ==>got up and felt the motor and it did not feel warm at all There are so many things that would trip either the motor or control's overload... A run capacitor would be a classic... However, as stated above, most of the common failure modes would trip a sensor and require a manual reset -- and you state that the system resets by itself -- this makes the failure mode more interesting. If it's not a flaky capacitor (still a solid area of investigation), then it's most likely the controls. It would would help to answer a few questions: Who's controls? I'm assuming SD/IEC -- it's what Oneida supplied at the time... Do you have a remote starter? Do you have a blast gate control system (Green box, EcoGate, et al)? Do you have a bin overflow sensor wired-in to the controls? Did you purchase the controls directly from Oneida? Did you (or an electrician) add any aftermarket items to the controls? Did you (or an electrician) add any status indicators or remote status light systems? Do you have a bin hold-down system wired-in to the controls? The failure/reset mode you describe can easily occur with controls that have accessories wired-in. If you have stock controls without additional junk, then I'd suspect the MS itself. If you're reasonably handy (and not too concerned about live 220), you can jump the contractors and see if the system still fails... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 Who's controls? I'm assuming SD/IEC -- it's what Oneida supplied at the time... ONEIDA Do you have a remote starter? YES Do you have a blast gate control system (Green box, EcoGate, et al)? NO Do you have a bin overflow sensor wired-in to the controls? NO Did you purchase the controls directly from Oneida? YES Did you (or an electrician) add any aftermarket items to the controls? NO Did you (or an electrician) add any status indicators or remote status light systems? NO Do you have a bin hold-down system wired-in to the controls? NO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 7, 2014 Report Share Posted July 7, 2014 =>>Who's controls? ONEIDA Interesting. Oneida doesn't make controls... Not to mind, we'll be popping the cover -- the labeling will tell us what's what... ==>Do you have a remote starter? YES First place I'd look... The 'start' and 'stop' leads from the remote receiver's switch/relay are wired into the MagSw's IEC control relay contactors -- on the start and stop lugs -- go figure . Are you comfortable popping-off the top of the controls and removing the remote switch leads? Depending on how Oneida installed the remote relay (they may have wired one pair of leads in series with the motor control), we may have to do a little rewiring, but probably only one lead -- no big deal... I'd try that first. If that doesn't do it, then I'd jump the IEC relay all together. If that doesn't do it, then it's the motor -- I'd start with the run cap. BTW: the other relay block is the IEC/CI safety relay -- thats were the set points for amps and voltage range are located... We'll ignore that for now. But as a side check, take a quick look to see if it's set to around 12.6a (don't ask). We may tweak that later. Note: disable branch circuit during initial foray, take photo of wiring and note color-codes and terminal positions... Note: we'll be energizing the branch with the cover-off, so only do this if you're comfortable with 220v. BTW: it could be one other thing -- but it's really remote... If the control relay looses power (or drops below a set-point voltage) for even a few hundred ms, the relay will trip (part of the safety design). Again, it's very remote, but this would also lead to the exact symptoms you describe... Is the DC on a dedicated branch? Have you cycled the breaker on that branch recently. Do you have issues with lights momentary dimming or similar observations of voltage drop? Do you have a clamp-on VOM? It's not unheard of for the central A/C compressor branch (usually 60+a 220v) to cycle-on and trip shop IEC relays... The reason I bring it up is that we're in summer and folks are using their central air... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 here are the pics of the NHD controls can you walk me thru this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 8, 2014 Report Share Posted July 8, 2014 Short answer: Yea, we can do some simple things to troubleshoot. The short-term goal is to determine if it’s the motor or the controls… controls are easy, motors are a pain in the ass… I was going to start with the motor, but now that I see you’ve got NHD controls, we can start there… While not directly on-point, Oneida went through a period of value-engineering prior to introducing their Gorilla, S-Gorilla and the rest of the zoo... NHD controls represent considerable cost savings, but will make the task of troubleshooting a bit harder… For reference, an NHD control set is about $90 with the SD/IEC control set (what Oneida used to supply) being about $450. With controls, you get what you pay for… We’ll start with the remote receiver… That’s usually a suspect area… Do you always use the key fob or a mix of key fob and control panel? Have you used the control panel recently? Worth a quick check. First thing’s first, we need to label all the receiver’s leads. I’m assuming you don’t happen to have wiring labels, so get yourself some blue tape and label each receiver lead with what terminal it’s wired to. We’re then going to remove the remote receiver and run the DC from the control panel… Do you happen to have a VOM? Or even better, a clamp-on ammeter? Don’t need it now, but the next step is to monitor the motor’s current draw and compare it to the control set points (the dials on the lower relay block)… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 thanks Triple we will be getting into it tomorrow will keep you posted and thanks again for helping here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Triple- here is what we did. We removed the remote receiver, after labeling all the wires. when we tried to start it nothing would happen when we hit the start button. However, if we held in what appears to be a red button that runs the width of the control it would run. But when we let go of the button it would stop running. next we hardwired the motor directly to the 220 power lead, it ran for 20 minutes and never shut down until we unpluged the power lead from the outlet. Here is a pic for clarification, I reused the old pic. the remote reciever is removed. What should I do now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 The answer's obvious -- your shop helper pushes the red button when you want to use a tool -- easy The red bar is the control relay contactor. By pushing it, you bypassed the control block... You jumped ahead a few steps, but that's OK. By wiring the motor directly, you bypassed the controls and demonstrated that the problem is [probably] not the motor... BTW: did the motor get hot? That would be a good thing to know... It could still be that the motor is drawing a bit more power than the safety block set-point due to age and tripping the safety relay -- that was going to be our next step... By running the motor directly from 220, the problem is 99% controls or the remote relay... The reason the switch didn't work with the remote removed is the way the controls were rewired by Oneida... Note: the controls were delivered to Oneida wired from the factory in Taiwan, Oneida opened the control box, rewired the control block and wired-in the remote themselves... Rule of Thumb: when troubleshooting electrics, always start with aftermarket add-ons... Unfortunately, Oneida has removed all the electrical PDFs from their website... I called yesterday --- they told me it was a liability issue... I have located a wiring diagram for an RG7 remote control for a 220v relay... Can you look at the remote receiver and see if it's marked RG7 (99% positive). If so, there should be 2 red wires for 220, 2 yellow leads for the N/O side (on) and 2 brown leads for the N/C side (off). I've also found a diagram for the NDH control block (I just happen to read Taiwanese -- just kidding -- it's all pictograms). If you could, please tell me which RG7 leads go to which control block terminals... Our goal is to wire the control block back to it's native (pre-remote) state and run the system. If it works, then it's the remote relay (which is my first bet)... If it still trips after the five minutes, then it's either the safety block (I'll go 50% on that), the control block (I'll go 40%), the motor (9%) or environmental (1%). It would be really helpful if you had access to a clamp-on ammeter... Don't happen to have any electrician friends? Want to compare the actual draw with the safety set-point. Right now, it should be 12.6 (more give than take). Some will set it to 14a or even 16a -- but that kind of defeats the purpose... Can you take a look? From the date code, it looks as if your system is about seven or eight years old, I'd bump the set-point to 14a, but would love to have an actual load amperage reading... Just to satisfy my curiosity, re-run the motor directly on 220a and feel for heat... Now this is important -- you're bypassing the safety relay, so don't just do this and walk away... You're still protected by the motor's thermal-overload and the branch circuit breaker, but those are rather course safety devices -- the safety relay is a much finer control... Run it for a while and see if the motor gets hot -- warm is expected, hot is not. If it gets hot, disconnect right away -- you've found your problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Thank you for your quick reply! ran the motor another 10 minutes. it was warm but not hot, could hold my hand on the motor all day. The remote reciever has no markings on it other then 220v-240v Code#0 The wires are as you say though! wired as follows: RED- 1L1 RED- 5L3 YELLOW - A2 BROWN & YELLOW BOTH - 13NO BROWN - 95 I will see what I can do about finding a meter, thanks again for your time and help, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 ==>I will see what I can do about finding a meter This puppy is ideal... No DIYer should be without one: http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-323-True-RMS-Clamp-Meter/dp/B00AQKIEXY/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&srs=2529432011&ie=UTF8&qid=1405011158&sr=1-1&keywords=fluke+323 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 ok bought a meter. measured the amprage of each 220 leg and each one was about 10.35amps. If you look at the previous pic it shows The point is set between 16 and 17 amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 ==>ok bought a meter. measured the amprage of each 220 leg and each one was about 10.35amps. OK, from your description, the control trips after about five minutes on a regular basis. When you run ir sans controls, the motor doesn't get hot. If the meter has a 'hold' function, set it on 'hold' and run the system for about ten minutes and collect the 'high' amps. If it's still in the 10-11 range, it's not the motor... ==>The point is set between 16 and 17 amps. Well, that's really quite right either... 12a, 13a, 14a are all rather discretionary with 13a being the sweet spot... I right in the middle of futzing with the wide-belt sander... The pneumatic oscillating mechanism is giving me problems and I'll need an hour or two to sort it... I'll look at the diagrams and we'll wire the control block back in.. In the interim, label the remaining leads into the control block w/ blue tape. label them based on that terminal their in now... We'll probably need to move one lead... We'll put a second piece of tape on that one... You have green and blue painters tape? Obviously L1 and L3 are the two supply legs... I'll look at the schematic for the control for the rest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 I ran the motor with the meter on and with the hold function. it stayed in the 10.21 range. I have labled all the the wires that are currenlty on the control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 OK. Taking a break from my sander issue... -- mini rant on Don't you just hate when the factory tech says something like (in a slow Southern drawl), "Weeeee'll you can take the piston assembly apart, but the spring's under pressure --- so it's kind of tricky -- whyyyy don't you just squirt some DW40 on'er and see if that takes care it"... Now, I hate that suggestion on several levels --- 1) Don't like WD40 in the woodshop... 2) The oscillating head pneumatic controls are non-trivial... 3) I didn't take enough Mechanical Engineering courses to figure-it-out... 4) It fixes the problem... and 5) Why didn't I think of that myself... --mini rent off Back to electrics--- From the data gathered, it's not the motor... We'll work on the control block first... Can you shoot a clearer photo? Can't make-out fine detail... With electrics, I'd rather not guess... But, then again, it's not my fingers poking around in there... Well, we could just shoot some WD40 on them controls... Just kidding Actually, you don't happen to have contact cleaner (I'm not sure that stuff is even legal anymore)? Actually, a really useful item to have in the DIY arsenal... It would be a bitch to do all this troubleshooting and have the issue being corroded contacts... Do'hhh, hate when that happens... Of course, you could just punt and pickup a set of identical controls from eBay for $49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maumee Mike Posted July 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 hope this one is clearer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Workable... Not to get off track, but the image is still slightly blurry... I can't see the focus-point (what the camera latches to). Or is this just camera shake? Can we get one slightly pulled-back. Would like to see the entire box (with the connections) One other thing... Why are there three inputs/outputs from the controls? Obviously, one is 220source, one is 220load (the motor), but that's the third? Do you have a second hard-wired control? Or an Emergency Off? Bin sensor, ? The source should be L1 and L3. Can you identify the two motor leads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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