PWRFULZ3R0 Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 So I built a changing table and the wife wants it painted white to match everything else. I have a fuji 4 turbine, but have never sprayed paint before. At first I thought I would just use latex but after reading many forums it seems like acrylic is the way to go. Does anyone else agree with that and is there a particular brand to try or stay away from? I've brushed on General Finishes Snow White milk paint before (which is acrylic) and liked that product but spraying it thinned could be a whole different result. When we brushed it on we were ok with brush strokes since it was a rustic piece but we want this to look professional. Does anyone have experience with Sherwin Williams pro classic or one from Benjamin Moore ? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Let me throw-out a product from left-field... I'm not necessarily saying this is the right way to go, but just providing options... Marine-grade tinted poly topcoat. These have a few things going for them: 1) Flow-out and self-level very well... With a poly roller, the finish will look sprayed. 2) Incredibly durable... 3) Resist staining... But the primary reason: Marine coating can be wiped-down with just about any cleaning product imaginable without degrading the finish. So you can go nuts with an anti-bacterial cleaner and not worry that the latex paint will peel-up... Now for the downside: They are expensive... Really expensive... About $30/qt for 1-part: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=64&familyName=Interlux+Brightside+Polyurethane About $60/qt for 2-part: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1439&familyName=Interlux+Perfection+Two+Part+Polyurethane Just an idea... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted July 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 Thanks, but I'd rather spray instead of roll it. Maybe there is something cheaper for spraying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 I use a pre catalyzed acrylic water bourne laquer called Aqualente by ML Campbell. Not sure if it is available in your area . It's around $55 a gallon for the white. The clear costs a bit more. Sprays beautifully and is a pretty tough finish. If you want to stick with paint store available material look at enamel paints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted July 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 THANKS! I'll check it out. Does it need a primer or top coat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 Doesn't need a top coat. There is a primer that is much easier to sand but it's not absolutely required. If you just start with thin coats, wait until it's completely dry and sand with fine sandpaper between coats it comes out nice. Spray some test panels first to practice then spray some test panels while you are painting the changing table. Check for dryness on the test panel. See if the finish is dry enough to sand on the test panel. This saves you from messing up the table when testing ! I think General Finishes has something similar but it might not be a pre catalyzed water bourne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Looks like there's a dealer about 30 minutes down the road from me. Great idea about spraying the test pieces as the same time as the work piece. I do want to use a primer. If you have any recommendations, let me know. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Agualente primer is much easier to sand and helps fill minor imperfections. If you sand between coats with 320 grit it will even fill the grain on woods like maple after a couple of coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekker Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 A good option is Sherwin Williams' Kem Aqua Plus and associated surfacer/primer. You could have three coats of finish on in a day. It's highly cross-linking. It meets KCMA tests. It can be tinted to match colors from SW, BM, Behr, etc. You'll have your choice of "Swiss Coffee", "Whisper White", etc. A similar product would be General Finishes Enduro Pigmented Poly. There's no reason to use standard brushable enamels if you have a sprayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 Hey wdwerker, So I applied the first coat of primer last night and have some questions if you have a minute. This is my first time spraying and I noticed that when I spray with the flow adjuster knob dialed out I reduced orange peel but I get runs. Once I saw the runs I dialed it in to reduce flow, but got orange peel. 1) So is it imperative that I get the primer coats perfectly sprayed on? 2) Will it have a strong impact to the final coats? 3) If the second coat is sprayed properly will it help reduce any affect on the final coat? 4) Do I need to sand the primer to remove the orange peel? I will say the spots where I laid down more primer came out really smooth, but then it started to run. Any tips and help you can offer is appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Thinner coats with no runs is better. Also spray a few scraps. When you can sand the scrap without clogging the sandpaper then sand the primer to smooth out the surface. 320 or 240 grit and be careful not to sand through on corners and edges. Once you have a nice smooth base of primer you can start with the finish coats. It's always a challenge to get a nice wet coat that will flow out without runs. I try to pick up the runs with a damp foam brush, but be careful not to make it worse ! When you make the spray fan wider it also gets a little dryer. Overlap your spray pattern 50% and sneak up on a full coat that won't run. I can't stress enough practice on scraps ! If the scrap is wet do not touch the table. Spray the scraps last ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekker Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Hey wdwerker, So I applied the first coat of primer last night and have some questions if you have a minute. This is my first time spraying and I noticed that when I spray with the flow adjuster knob dialed out I reduced orange peel but I get runs. Once I saw the runs I dialed it in to reduce flow, but got orange peel. 1) So is it imperative that I get the primer coats perfectly sprayed on? 2) Will it have a strong impact to the final coats? 3) If the second coat is sprayed properly will it help reduce any affect on the final coat? 4) Do I need to sand the primer to remove the orange peel? I will say the spots where I laid down more primer came out really smooth, but then it started to run. Any tips and help you can offer is appreciated. Thanks Is the primer showing orange peel after it coalesces (dries)? I find that waterborne finishes typically aren't glass-smooth off the gun, but can end up so after coalescing. In any event, one of the reasons to put on primer is because it's easier to sand than the topcoat. You should plan to sand the primer coats to make sure you have a perfect surface for your topcoat. As far as runs go, one option with the faster drying waterbornes like Agualente or Kem Aqua Plus is to spray each flat surface while horizontal and let dry for ~15 minutes or so (it should be dry enough to not run at that point). Once you've dialed things in a bit better, you'll be able to spray the surfaces while vertical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Neil Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 not sure if this will help but I just did something similar , but wanted it snow white and fast. I used some BIN shellac base primer, but the water base would work and simply put a top coat over it , worked pretty slick , here is a blog my daughter did on it http://intheworkshop.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/new-life-in-old-stuff-upcycling/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 I like CN's suggestion -- I've personally used that combo and it works well... One downside (which is why I don't use it anymore) -- pigmented shellac is a bit of a clean-up nightmare --- unless you shoot with a disposables system... Which reminds me, what gear are you shooting with? If you've only got a 2 or 3 stage HVLP, then we may need to rethink... Someone mentioned SW, KAP -- that's a nice product.. Shoots well... Here's an alternative that's one step up: Mohawk's Industrial Coatings: http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=830 You can shoot a white sealer followed-up with one of their white topcoats... You can pick from WB, pre or post-cat lacquer, conversion varnish, etc. The most durable is the conv-varnish... All are dedicated spray formulations... They are easy to shoot, lay-down very well and as tough as nails... The nice thing about Mohawk's sealers: you get a lot of solids fast and the stuff's friable... A quick shoot of two light coats and you can sand-back to for an ideal surface for top-coating... Some of their newer coatings are really impressive: many of their post-cats have six-month shelf-life after mixing-in the catalyst... Doesn't get much better than that... With the white sealer, you can topcoat clear if you like... The only thing more durable are the two-part pigmented resin finishes -- harder to shoot, but cure like concrete -- unfortunately, very expensive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted August 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 I'm shooting with a minimite 4. I already purchased the MLC Agaulente, so I'm not switching unless it turns out horrible. Which I don't think it will. I will try the BIN primer some other time. I do think it would be nice on a recycle piece, but this table is freshly made! Trekker, your indeed right. Most of the orange peel went away after it dried, what was left was a very rough surface. Similar to a 180 grit sandpaper. I'm guessing these are the large solids in the primer which need knocked down and smoothed out. I'm guessing the surface in the photo is not ready for first coat of paint correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Just sand with very fine sandpaper . The roughness could be raised grain, sanding will take care of that. You can slightly thin with clean water , less than 5% , if needed. Practice on scrap with different fan and fluid settings until you get a coat that will flow out without being so heavy it runs. Spraying in the cooler times of the day might help. Sometimes dirty filters on a turbine HVLP will reduce your air flow. I see nothing that some sanding and another thin coat of sealer won't fix. If the next coat looks the same you can still sand it smooth enough to start using the finish coats. Those scraps you should be spraying all need to be treated the same as your table. I sand tabletops with 320 grit and a cork block to get the smoothest results. You can substitute a very flat softwood block with the corners eased. Finger pressure on sandpaper alone leaves a slightly uneven surface. Abrasive non woven pads can be useful on moldings, legs and curves. Red is coarse, be careful with those. Grey is finer so it cuts slower and leaves a smoother surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted August 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 I purchased a "preppin weapon" sanding block, from Amazon and it arrived today. I sanded everything down to 220 and things got really smooth. I blew it off with a compressor. I checked the primer with the viscosity cup and it took 70-80 secs for it to flow through. So i thinned it to it's max, 10%. I checked it through the cup again, and now got 30 secs! Thought that was too quick so I added more primer and probably got somewhere between 5% to 10%. I hung a sheet of roslin paper in my booth and started dialing in my settings. Oh I also put the primer through a filter this time. I slowed down my coverage rate so things would get wet. This worked great on all horizontal surfaces but the vertical surfaces started to run. Caught my runs with a wet foam brush, but it left streaks behind. But when I sanded earlier I realized it's easier to sand brush strokes than runs. Most my surfaces looked like glass when they were wet. Once dried things got bumpy again, but it's nice to know they smooth out easily. I'll post a few more pics one sanded down again. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Sometimes I put a really thin coat on the vertical surfaces first, then spray the horizontal faces and then back to the vertical just enough to get it barely wet. Spraying too close or with low light can lead to runs. Even if a coat seems a little dry that's better than runs. I filter everything that I spray. Try sanding with 320 before you start the finish coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Timing is everything... I've just been handed a little project that needs a durable 'snow white' surface... Very similar to the requirements of the OP... I'll post some photos as I go along, and will apply several products as examples... I've got four panels of 3/4BB, prepped and sanded to 180 Shot Mohawk Vinyl Sealer: medium build, tinted white, used straight from the can, no filtering: http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=830 10psi, 130cfm, 1mm orifice, 8" fan Surface is off-the-gun -- no sanding or post processing Photo: EOS1DX, 85mm f/1.2, RAW/DNG - unprocessed Gray area is an 18% gray-card to establish color balance and exposure White rectangle is Epson photo stock, bright white, semi-gloss Depending on your monitor/browser/video card/etc settings, the image will be one of the Fifty Shades of Gray... And you thought it's just a sex thing... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shades_of_gray The second image is EOS 100mm macro... We'll get down & dirty... The point of the white square is to show how an actual photo-white surface is displayed on your system... In addition, the square provides a reference for a fine textured surface as compared to the spray job... You have to click on the image to enlarge.. If you click on the enlarged image, you'll get full-size. The surface is even and uniformly photo-white. The surface lacks bumps, lumps, imperfections of any sort. If you zoom-in, you will note that the surface texture is comparable to the photo stock. Let's repeat that: off-the-gun & straight from the can, the surface is comparable to photo stock... There's a reason why industrial-grade coatings are used by pro shops... One issue, coatings like this are not 'supposed' to be sold retail. In-fact, several states don't permit retail consumers from purchasing them at all... However, a local cabinet shop will [probably] order-in for you... The next step is to sand the panels w/320 and shoot a topcoat... I'll shoot one panel with a clear cat-lacquer and one with added tint. I'll post photos and you'll see a very slight difference in sheen. The other two panels I'll shoot WB. <edit> brand agnostic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Continued from yesterdays post… Two panels have been sanded w/ 320 and top-coated. Panel on the left is Mohawk post-cat lacquer #60. Panel on the right is Mohawk post-cat lacquer #60 w/tint added. Top-coats are straight from the can, just stirred to mix-in the flatteners. No filtering. As before, shot at 10psi, 130cfm, 1mm orifice, 8" fan As before, surface is photographed off-the-gun, no sanding or post processing First thing to notice is that the panels are the same tone, but the panel with tint added has a slightly ‘brighter’ surface reflectivity. If we move in a bit closer, you can see the panel w/ tint added has a slightly rougher texture. The panel without tint has laid-down like glass. The panel’s texture is virtually identical to the surface of the photo stock. I had to increase contrast of the closeups to bring-out the small amount of texture in the surface.. Both surfaces are even and uniform without nibs, bumps, etc. The panel w/ tint will need to be rubbed-out. The panel without tint is good-to-go right from the gun… One other item of note – there was a small edge sand-through on the panel that received the clear coat. So if you decide to forgo tint in your topcoat, then you need to be particularly mindful of sand-through. I'll shoot the final two panels with WB coatings and post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekker Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 There's a reason why Mohawk's Industrial Coatings are used extensively by pro shops... One issue, coatings like this are not 'supposed' to be sold retail. In-fact, several states don't permit retail consumers from purchasing them at all... However, a local cabinet shop will [probably] order-in for you... Actually, the odds are that they use them already... Nice writeup on other finishing options. For the newer finishers, I just want to clarify that, yes, there are many finishing options in the commercial realm. There are many suppliers like Mohawk, Chemcraft, Sherwin Williams, ML Campbell, ICA, etc. Hobby workworkers can purchase from many suppliers, but it's the type of finish moreso than the company that should be of concern. Having a local rep who can guide you is also helpful. Woodworkers such as PWRFULZ3R0 who are moving up from SW Pro Classic should probably move to a commercial pigmented WB for ease of spraying. I'd recommend that they stay away from the isocyanate-catalyzed finishes until they invest in a supplied air respirator. I don't see many people wanting to use polyesters on a regular basis unless they have a plural component gun. The post-catalzyed lacquers are nice, but are probably too big of jump for an initial foray into spraying a pigmented finish (the solvent-based finish is also difficult to purchase in places like California with stringent emissions regulations). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 <isocyanate-catalyzed finishes...probably too big of jump for an initial foray> <but it's the type of finish moreso than the company that should be of concern. Having a local rep who can guide you is also helpful> Points well taken... Yea, in retrospect, CV does take some experience... Maybe too big a jump... Know what you're saying on post-cat-lacquer, but with the pre-measured cat packets, it's way more user-friendly these days and you can still get 6-month shelf life... I guess the re-coat window is the only thing that's got to be managed... But if a newbie is good about organization/time-management, then it's not out of the question... I agree completely that a newbie shouldn't jump into cat-lacquer from a safety point of view... Also agree about the respirator - folks should not be touching this stuff without one... I'm not totally in the 'you must always use air-supplied' camp -- with a good organic respirator and some discipline, the occasional hobbyist should be OK... I do believe pre-cat lacquers (and post-cat for that matter) are more forgiving of technique than the WBs. With the lacquers, I've also found that one can lay-down a really nice finish with moderate experience right off-the-gun... WBs have come a long way, but (all marketing hype aside), they still have a way to go... With the WB's, if you don't have your technique down, you can end up with a real mess. I suppose for flat surfaces it's a push, but for more complex pieces, WB's over-spray issue can bite you. I've been hearing about new formulations in beta-test that greatly reduce the over-spray issue, but haven't seen them yet... There's a tendency to get newbies into WB right off-the-bat -- and for many good reasons... But I've always maintained that WB takes more skill/experience to lay-down a nice finish off-the-gun... With some of the low-VOC coatings (there's a lot available in 275 at the moment), you can shoot a more forgiving coating while you develop your technique, then push into WBs -- with the 275/550 coatings, the only thing you trade is time. In a few years it'll all be mute -- the WBs are progressing so rapidly that they'll be just as forgiving... There's also the equipment issue -- there are a lot of 2/3-stage turbines in the hands of hobbyists. I know folks don't want to here it (and all marketing claims aside), you aren't going to properly atomize WB coatings with 6psi/90CFM turbine to get off-the-gun surfaces -- sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just the way it is... With a 2/3-stage turbine and WB coatings, you'll need to rub-out --- resulting in more chances of witness lines... I still think tinted vinyl sealers are the way to go for a project like the OP's.. They are pretty forgiving of technique and you get solids very quickly. Doesn't have to be Mohawk --- I just happen to be using their system. Lot's of good products out there... The topcoat for a changing table needs to resist disinfectants, anti-bacterials, and other contaminates... For me, that calls for a cat coating... The OP's got a 4-stage turbine, so he can atomize a WB-cat lacquer and get something that's durable in a WB formulation. Guess my overall suggestion is to pick a coating system and learn it... You see plenty of posts asking for the 'best' sealer, the a couple of days later, the 'best' topcoat... I always cringe when I see that... Cherry-picking finishes may lead the hobbyist to use products from different systems --- with slight compatibility issues --- and wonder why they don't get better results off-the-gun... You read about this all the time -- new craftsman getting frustrated over initial spray results and it could be a simple case of incompatibilities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Continued from yesterday’s post… Remaining two panels have been sanded w/ 320 and top-coated. Panel on the left is Mohawk WB-ConV #60. Panel on the right is Mohawk WB-ConV #60 w/tint added. Top-coats are straight from the can, just stirred to mix-in the flatteners. No filtering. Shot at 10psi, 130cfm, 0.8mm orifice, 10" fan As before, surface is photographed off-the-gun, no sanding or post processing As with the Cat-Lac panels, both tint and no-tint results are the same tone with a slight increase in surface reflectivity w/tint. So far, everything seems to be as expected… Going macro, you can see the panel w/tint has a rougher texture – even rougher than the Cat-Lacquer w/tint. The clear coat surface is almost indistinguishable from the photo stock. As before, contrast was increased to bring-out the small amount of texture in the surface… Both surfaces are even and uniform without nibs, bumps, etc. The panel w/tint will need to be rubbed-out. The panel wo/tint is good-to-go off-the-gun… The WB-ConV results are very similar to the Cat-Lac (which is expected), but there are a couple of interesting differences that I didn't expect…The WB panels are noticeably ‘brighter’ than the Cat Lacquer panels. The WB-ConV panels are almost indistinguishable in tone from the photo stock. While not something you would notice when the panels are separated by several feet, if they were mounted side-by-side, you would notice the difference. Sorry the web-images are so poor... a great deal of detail is lost going from 14-bit to 8-bit imaging... Summary: Using the tinted sealer w/clear-coat you get from prepped stock to finished project in less than eight hours – maybe three if you push it… The surface is good-to-go. No further processing is necessary... Using the tinted sealer w/tinted topcoat also gets the project top-coated in less than eight hours, but you’ll need to wait a day or so to process the surface... Well, my project is delivered, so I'm out of here. Good luck to the OP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Man, that is a lot of info. Thanks for the efforts, 4-square! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWRFULZ3R0 Posted August 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Well I got it as good as I think I can. I can see a few flaws but my wife thinks I'm crazy. A special thanks to wdwerker for all the help! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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