Where did the good tools go?

[cedarhorseworkshop]

I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for my ignorance.  It's great to be part of the community, I'm looking forward to some great discussions.

 

I've become very frustrated with power tools in the last decade.  I'm only 25, but I still have the old tools that my dad bought 30 years ago that are still working really well.  When I buy new power tools, the don't last very long and it's hard to figure out what the good power tools are.  When I was younger, it was easy... Dewalt & Stihl

 

With everything made in China now, what's the best brand name in tools?  Where can I find quality?  Dewalt is now a generic brand like the rest of them.  STIHL is still pretty good, but I don't need to buy a chainsaw right now.

 

Specifically, I'm looking for a lathe, table saw, and bandsaw.  I heard Grizzly was a good brand, but their $200 model is exactly the same as the Harbor Freight model, which isn't very good.  Can someone recommend some good tool brands for these three tools?  I'd really appreciate it.

[Beechwood Chip]

Remember to adjust for inflation.  The $200 tool you buy today is equivalent to an $85 tool 30 years ago.  in 1983, an $85 table saw wasn't a quality tool.

 

$400 - $500 dollars, the equivalent of $200 30 years ago, will get you a decent piece of equipment from Grizzly.

[Eric.]

What Chip said.  Good tools cost money.  There are plenty of great tools still being made...but you have to pay for 'em.  Grizzly is on the lower end, but they can be a great value, depending on which model you're considering.

[Tpt life]

Even with inflation, hand tools have become less repairable and more a consumer item. My $19 Harbor Freight Chicago Electric recip saw has killed it for the price range and has not died yet. Everyone is shooting for that experience and many fail.

[Beechwood Chip]

I've seen a trend in many types of product since I was a kid in the 60's: a high quality, specialty item gets made for a specific, demanding use, and it slowly gets turned into an inexpensive item for everyday use.  

• Down jackets, originally for mountain climbers and others who needed extreme light weight for extreme cold.
• SUVs. My cousin bought a Land Rover in the 60's.  He was a journalist, who was going off-road in central Africa.  An extensive maintenance and mechanics training course was included in the price, which he took.
• Waterproof wrist watches, originally for scuba divers.

It's fun to watch how a specialized piece of technical gear that's only used by a few experts gets turned into a consumer item that's more of a fashion statement than a tool.

 

I have a drill/driver combo.  I use them for the occasional DIY project around the house.  They see very light use, a few times a year.  I really don't need the same quality as a contractor who pushes them to the limit every day and needs them to last for years.  A company can sell a whole lot of inexpensive tools to people like me, but selling expensive tools to contractors is a small market.

[woodbutcher74]

Price isn't always the best indicator of quality but it's a place to start. Unfortunately $200.00 barely buys a decent cordless tool anymore. The best way to find quality tools is to go to trade shows or visit with people who use their tools to make a living they will usually give the straight poop. Heck look online. Google is a great tool.You Tube search woodworking videos and check out the tools that these people are using. Just some ideas. I have a combination of  Delta, Grizzly, Craftsman, DeWalt and it goes on. It depends on what your looking at doing.

[Andrew Pritchard]

Don't forget the used tool market. Do some research into items available on Craigslist and Ebay. If your budget can't quite stretch to new more expensive items, you can often find similar items to the ones your Dad bought 30 years ago. Just be wary that things like brushes in motors might need to be replaced. I think it's also safe to say that new blades on old saws will go a long way too!

[tim0625]

First post in the forum!!! Welcome.....er....Frank. IDK who you are and cedarhorseworkshop is long and Tim is lazy so I shall call you Frank until you come from the shadows.

Tools ...wow...broad subject...according to your interests, decide what you want to work on and that will help you decide what you may need first...table saw, band saw, another chuck for the lathe, chisels, etc. Within each tool category, there are pearls and there are duds.  As was said, the used market is available and IMO a pretty good approach to get a better quality tool at an affordable price.  Many of us are on our 4th, 5th, or more table saw purchase but with each one, we learn what works but the used market it a way to do it all cheaper especially if you're buying a larger tool. You have to be a little more careful in the used market; but it's a cheaper way to learn. Many here have a lot of history buying smaller, but new things like cordless drills, chisels, turning tools.  My advice to you is when you decide on a tool you need, bring it to the guys and gals here at the forum and do a "whatdayathink?" and you'll sidestep a few duds and save some money along the way. Again.....WELCOME!! 

[mikem]

Also, because a tool HF sells looks like other major brands, doesn't mean it is the same machine.  The harbor freight band saw has a lot of the same castings as pretty much every other 14" band saw.  While they may look the same on the outside, they are not. Also, harbor freight does not hold manufacturers to the same quality control standards of other companies.  

 

I own three Grizzly machines.  The oldest is a drill press that was given to me.  It was made in 1992, and still works fine.  The next machine is a 14" G0555P Band Saw.  That saw has been awesome.  The third and most recent purchase was a 6" Jointer.  It took a little time to fine tune it, but once I did, it gets the job done.

 

 

Grizzly is like any other brands, most of their machines will get the job done with few issues.  Some of their machines hit it out of the park.  Others, you wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.  Like anything else, do you are homework so you know what you are buying.  Overall, I would consider Grizzly mid-range tools.  For higher end, start looking at Powermatic.  Right now, I would stay away from Delta, not due to the quality of the tools, but with the issues of the company.

 

For hand held tools, I have really gotten to like Bosch.  I have two of their routers, and one of their newer 12V lithium drills.

 

Hope that helps in your tool search.

[cedarhorseworkshop]

Thanks a lot guys, this is great information.  We have great farm sales out here in the Dakotas that will be really great sources for used tools.  Luckily, I know enough about electronics and welding to where I'd be able to repair and restore most of them.  I think I'd find a good old heavy table saw or band saw pretty easily.

 

The item I've been looking at getting from Grizzly is a lathe.  At farm sales, the only lathes I've seen are really old and take a lot of time to even put a piece in the machine or change speeds.  My budget could potentially be higher for a lathe, so I'm looking for a full lathe with all the bells and whistles: stand, chuck attachment, dial speed adjustment, etc.  Thanks MikeM, I'll check out the Powermatic models.

 

TimWood, I apologize!  My name is Luke and I'll poke around to get my profile changed to reflect that.

[Rick A McQuay]

If you want a quality big lathe toward the top end, Powermatic is a good way to go, assuming they don't go bankrupt or get sold off to the highest bidder by the new owners.

[tim0625]

That's cool Luke!.....you don't look like a Frank anyway.

[cedarhorseworkshop]

Ha, thanks Tim!

 

McQ, is that a real possibility?  I did quick search and didn't see anything.  I'd hate to spend that much and then have no company for customer service.

[Rick A McQuay]

Unlikely but possible. PM was recently purchased by a company that specializes in buying companies on the verge of bankruptcy and cutting them up.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

[ponderingturtle]

Is this true though, or is it romanticism?

 

I think about cars that last for so much longer and take a lot less maintenance than they used to but hear so much romanticism for cars you could fix yourself.  I think about how my dewalt jig saw is just plain better than the one my dad had when I was growing up.  I think about how much better and better battery technology  is getting for cordless tools.  I think about in manufacturing how much better and better CNC machines are getting making precision in many things much more affordable, with lower tooling costs.  I think about innovations like replaceable carbide helical cutter heads as an available upgrade to many base line planers.

 

So I wonder how much of it is romanticism and how much is it that the crappy cheap tools got thrown out years ago, so you are comparing crappy cheap tools now to good tools of the past.

 

 

[Tpt life]

Yes and no. The first NiMH battery tools were novel and well manufactured, but with primitive battery structures. As battery technology advanced, this feature became better but manufacturing began to seek to cut overhead and provide more cost effective models. Blah, blah ad infinitum, cue punch line: while we can see long term upward trends, we have gone through some fairly large dips in the trend.

[wdwerker]

It's funny that I see so few mentions of Jet tools on this Forum. I started buying them when Delta's quality went down . They own Powermatic and from what I have seen a lot of the tools share parts and castings. So today's Powermatic is a deluxe version of the Jet products , probably held to tighter quality control etc.

I know the parent company got sold recently but haven't read much since then in the several woodworking industry magazines that I read.

[ponderingturtle]

Sure people want to spend less on things.  But cutting corners in cost has always been there too.  Comparing the tools I have to the ones my dad had to me shows I have better tools.  Of course this is in handheld power tools.  And yes things get built to be manufactured easily not built to last, because people by and large will not pay several times the price for one that is easier to fix.  Save the cost and replace it when it breaks makes ecconomic sense for many things to many people.

 

So what specific tool category was good in "The Old Days" when ever that is that the person is thinking of but not good now?

[knotscott]

Playing the name game isn't the best approach IMO. These days it's smarter to evaluate the individual tool in question more than the brand.  The big companies know plenty about brand name recognition, and care more about profiting from the brand than the actual quality of the tool.  Some tools are also aimed at a certain segment of the market with a specific intended usage.....you'd be wise to acknowledge that too.   A heavier duty tool from a lesser brand can be a better choice than a light duty tool from a more well regarded brand.   Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you just pay more.   Spending more generally improves  your odds, but it's no guarantee.  There are lemons and gems with nearly all brands now....do some research on the tools you're considering, and choose wisely.