Razorburne Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 Silly question maybe, but here goes: Do I simply finish my project --- sanding, staining, topcoating --- and only after that then add hinges, lid supports, door pulls, etc. or Do you do a "dry fit" first, by essentially measuring, pre-drilling, and screwing everything down initially, then dismantling everything, then finishing with stain and topcoat, and finally re-installing the previously fitted hardware? I'm assuming the second option is the way to go but this is actually the first project I've had that includes hardware so I'm not sure and son't want to screw anything up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 I mount and test everything up front. Then I dismantle for finishing. This way, there are no surprises after the finish is on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 Dry fit. Always dry fit... Important: if you're using hardware in a softer metal (say brass), then do the dry fit substituting steel screws, hinges, etc. Keep a 'dry fit' set of hinges/etc so you only take tool steel to brass once... The same applies to bright-polished steel hardware... The point is, no matter how careful you are, at some point, the screwdriver will slip and you'll score a nice deep line in your shinny new brass hinges, locks, screws, whatever... If you get hardware from one of the better sources (ex. Horton), you can usually get identical hardware in several metals. Same goes for screws... For historical reasons, hardware screws are usually in odd-sized threading -- ex. 5, 7 & 9 are the most common. You won't find these sizes in your local hardware store. To use like-for-like threading, order some inexpensive steel screws from McMasterCarr... Drive all your holes with steel screws and only use the brass ones for final-final assembly. Clocking is a topic for another day... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 Dry fit and make sure there is room for finish. I leave approx 1/16 gap between things. Plastic laminate sample chips are almost a perfect 1/16. Finish everything, put it back together and the drawer won't fit or the door won't close is a sickening feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 Dry fit, or be unpleasantly surprised! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 One additional point... Installing high-end hardware? Don't use BORG screwdrivers -- Ever! There are long threads on screwdrivers and why some are better than others... You can find them yourself... Here's the short version: Gunsmithing screwdrivers are the best, but they can be very expensive. LeeValley/Veritas has a decent set. GarrettWade has a decent set. Elkhead has a really good set, but ridiculously expensive (about $100/driver) What we use: Snap-on T-style ratcheting drivers ($60/each) with a set of Brownells Gunsmithing bits ($135). Why do we use what we use? You get the highest quality driver/bits without overpaying for fancy wood handles... It's a screwdriver, not a work of art... You can save $25/each on drivers by purchasing the import-version, they are almost identical, but you don't pay for the Snap-on name -- you also lose the lifetime unconditional warranty... If you budget allows, a complete set of individual gunsmithing screwdrivers with plastic handles is great, but between $300 and $400... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 I find that a waste of money 4-Square. I get what you are after but find it much cheaper to start with an oversize blade that I can file to shape. The only real screw type this matters for are slotted as the correct size of other bits are tapered fit bits. Variations in screw manufacture do not put me off much working this way as a quick pass with a file corrects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 I've got a partner who does that... He's got a set of 12 Stanley drivers that must be 80 years old -- really nice solid things... He hand grinds/shapes the blades... Funny thing -- when I'm missing a driver/bit in a size not in his set, I always know where I can find it... On the flip side, if we encounter an odd-ball size, then he just shapes the blade to fit... Part of the problem is the amount/variation of hardware you deal with and part of it is restoration work... There are about 20 common slotted head sizes you may encounter with furniture hardware (and that doesn't include metric)... If you always buy the same hardware in the same size from the same source, then shape a blade or two -- no problem... But I don't think I can accurately hand-grind/shape 20 different slotted blades -- and if I had the skill, then I don't have the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomwolf Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Budgets will also be different for a professional who uses their screw drivers on a daily basis, vs us hobbyists who might not touch them for a month & and only need three or four different sizes. YMMV There are about 20 common slotted head sizes you may encounter with furniture hardware (and that doesn't include metric) Metric is the devil. Don't encourage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 ==>hobbyists who might not touch them for a month & and only need three or four different sizes. YMMV That's an extremely good point... And the correct way to appreciate the situation... My underlying message is that standard slotted screwdrivers are tapered and probably not machined to tolerances sufficient to uniformly engage the fastener's shoulders. I diluted the main message... Sorry... The point is: Working with high-quality hardware and desiring the minimum of bruised fasteners, score lines, etc requires a properly-formed driver. How you obtain one is up to the you. But purchasing commodity 20 piece screwdriver set for $29.95 at Walmart isn't one of the viable options -- unless you reform the blade... I find the comment about Metric interesting. When did Canada switch-over? Of course when I was in school, the US was 'definitely' going to change-over within a decade -- that was two decades ago... Every math, science, etc was taught with Metric units -- it was so obvious it's a superior system... I know the justification for staying SAE was a financial one, but now every DIYer now has Metric and SAE tools anyway. For me, the most annoying experience is working on a lawnmower with SAE and Metric not just in the same unit, but the same sub-assembly. I rebuilt the carburetor for my chipper over the weekend and some of the fasteners were SAE and some Metric... It doesn't get much more frustrating... I'm sorry Robertson didn't catch-on in the US... I've read the stories on why it didn't -- kind of sad commentary... I wouldn't use them on fine furniture, but for everything else, I'm all square-drive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 I wouldn't say metric is a superior system, it's just easier to do math with. Observing how traditional woodworking is done, how human proportions relate to furniture dimensions, and how simple tools can be used for design, I say the 'English' system is more natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 4-Square, no need to be sorry. This is the value of the forum. Any reader can be sure in most cases to read a complete discussion. I also never wanted to devalue your message. As a band director, I keep jewelers' drivers and use them often. For restoration work, I only do enough to run into four or five projects a year that may need this treatment. The fact is that my prior home had consistent screws throughout. Once I set up a driver for one set of door hinges, I could rework all of the 27 doors. I still had to take the time to set up the driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Boy Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 I wouldn't say metric is a superior system, it's just easier to do math with. Observing how traditional woodworking is done, how human proportions relate to furniture dimensions, and how simple tools can be used for design, I say the 'English' system is more natural. Not sure what you mean by this. How is one type of measurement more in tune with human proportions than another? I'm obviously biased though being in Australia and using the more modern metric system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Not sure what you mean by this. How is one type of measurement more in tune with human proportions than another? I'm obviously biased though being in Australia and using the more modern metric system. I just mean that the 'English' system is based around measurements of typical human bodyparts, and divisions by half, which is easy to accomplish with simple instruments. Metric is based on an arbitrary standard, and uses multiples and divisions of ten, which isn't easy to do with a compass and straight edge. Certainly, metric math is easier, but you don't always have a pre-marked set of metric measuring instruments handy. Most of us have a foot, or at least a finger joint that will get us into the ballpark. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Glad to see this question get asked. I was having the same questions about my current project despite reading multiple times to fit hardware before finishing. The question I have is do u worry about or have problems with screw holes getting to big causing a loose fit at final assembly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 ==>do u worry about or have problems with screw holes getting to big causing a loose fit at final assembly? A drop of CA firms-up the fibers. A dab of wax allows the fastener to release, if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomwolf Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 I find the comment about Metric interesting. When did Canada switch-over? I believe Canada switched in 1983, as the switch is partly responsible for Air Canada Flight 143 running out of fuel at 41,000ft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider I was born after the switch occurred, and metric is what is taught in school, but in daily life people tend to use feet, inches, and meters interchangeably, especially if you work in the building trades. If you got to the store you can find products with labels that list both their per pound and per kilo price. So while officially metric, we're effectively kind of both. Metric is good for lab work, and easily divisible calculations, and that is about it. The distances are too arbitrary, and they don't have anything in between a cm and a meter, unlike imperial, which has feet. I can visualize 2' a lot easier than 60cm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombarde16 Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Metric is good for lab work, and easily divisible calculations, and that is about it. The distances are too arbitrary, and they don't have anything in between a cm and a meter, unlike imperial, which has feet. I can visualize 2' a lot easier than 60cm. What? You don't design your pieces using decimeters? For the original poster, it's been beaten to death but I also add hardware before finishing. I'm trying to think of a time that that's not the case. Perhaps on shop and home projects where I don't care. i.e. Banging together a few pieces of scrap plywood to make something around the house. Often times I'll just trust that I can get hinges on later and go straight to paint without fitting hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 ==>Air Canada Flight 143 running out of fuel at 41,000ft That's an incredible story -- and no causalities -- amazing... Had no idea that a 767 could achieve a 12:1 glide ratio -- figured it would be closer to 2:1 (with no hope of survivors)... Of course, with no fuel and not many passengers, the airframe is 200Klbs+ lighter... Wonder what the glide ratio is for a fully laden 767 airframe without power? BTW: Same thing happened in 1990 over Long Island, but that was a 707 which does fly like a brick when out of fuel --- far different outcome... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomwolf Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 For the original poster, it's been beaten to death but I also add hardware before finishing. To clarify, because I am new at this as well, do you mean add as in "test fit hardware, remove, finish, re-add hardware", or add as in "add, finish with hardware in place"? Back off topic, there're a number of flights that ended up with the plane gliding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airline_flights_that_required_gliding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Remove the hardware before finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4-Square Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 <Back off topic, there're a number of flights that ended up with the plane gliding.> I count 28 flights that ran out of fuel... Boy, that reassures me... So, in addition to: Arriving at the airport 2 hrs early, dealing the customer-focused TSA, paying $25 for a carry-on bag (that's going to get squashed anyway), being squeezed into a seat designed for midgets, paying $10 for a cold burger, perhaps ending-up at the wrong airport (or the Southern Ocean, if the pilot's having a bad day) or having your flight coming to an abrupt end because the airline wanted to save fuel costs by fling a shorter corridor that happens to be over a war zone.... You can now add: running out of fuel... Wow, just can't wait to return to the friendly skies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 Flying is for the birds .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHop Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 According to my wife, metric is the system of standard for medical personnel. Since she's the medic and I'm usually the patient, I tend to just say ok. (She also frequently says "I don't fix stupid," so I make sure the issues I bring to her were not caused in my shop.) Back on topic: when test fitting hardware, do you do anything to protect it? (Such as wrapping tape around show edges/faces, leaving packing on, etc.) I've got a couple of hooks still in the plastic bag that I'm eyeing for an inset installation in an upcoming build, but the hooks themselves will get scratched badly if I look at them wrong. I know I should only recess just for the foot of the hook, but can I cover the rest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted August 14, 2014 Report Share Posted August 14, 2014 You can certainly tape off stuff to protect it during finish. It's usually just easier to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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