Paying more for better wood


Mzdadoc

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I think that C's point is that those "character" marks aren't appropriate for every project.

 

If you were building Marc's platform bed in bubinga (and spending that amount to purchase it) what lumber would you pick? And, more importantly, what would the client expect?  Now, my live edge stuff, I do leave a lot of that stuff in because it lends itself to the piece.

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What I get from this is talking someone else down and trying to fit their projects into your taste. Calling them a snob is just inflammatory. You can bet that no one is going to talk your work down on this basis. A lot of hard work has gone into making this forum that way. Please take time to go back through Marc's archives and you will see that your interpretation of his statement in the video you referenced is very likely an inaccurate understanding of the elements in play. You can find a tremendous volume of knotty and inclusive projects in this forum right next to clear straight grained projects. Neither is better than the other. To consider either better rather than preferred is just chasing the wind.

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Definitely heading into an area where "only you can decide" applies. This varies from project to project, person to person, customer to customer. Your desire for the final outcome all the way down to budget play roles in the design of the piece. Sometimes you work the grain into a project with everything meticulously laid out, sometimes you step back at the end and turn your head like a confused dog as to how you missed "that one". Some projects only require you to grab a handful of a certain species, other require you to hand pick special and specific boards. To sum it up, no way is wrong or better unless you want to dive that much deeper into your project approach. If you choose to closely examine your boards and do careful layout before the project starts, it could definitely enhance your experience. If you choose not to go that route, you can still enter your woodworking nirvana without fussing and getting right down to first cut. 

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Well perhaps I jumped the gun with the use of the word "snob". For that I apologize.

Guess I was just venting cause here lately I have noticed trend with fine woodworking where people reference being particularly picky about lumber selection and often reference clear straight grain. No doubt that it's necessary for certain pieces, I just hate that those characteristics seem to be more associated with higher end builds.

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Distressed and rustic pieces are not Marc's taste, Fricassee, nor are they mine.  If you enjoy that style, great, I'm happy for you.  A woodworker has to build what they enjoy building or there's no point in building.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with rustic pieces if they're well executed.  It just doesn't happen to be my taste.  I prefer building pieces more in the ballpark of studio furniture.  And while that doesn't necessarily mean always using clean, defect free lumber, in my case it does.  And defect-free doesn't mean boring or lifeless.  Rustic does nothing for me, but I wouldn't try to invalidate your vision of what woodworking should be because of that.  My personal vision of woodworking is making a piece as perfect as I'm capable of making it, and that includes agonizing over board selection, which means avoiding defects and off-putting color and grain inconsistencies.  But I'm quite confident that the pieces I build still have plenty of "character," for better or worse. :)

 

To address your comment about fine furniture, I have to say that a lot of people will throw the word "rustic" around as an excuse for a lack of skill or care in their work.  Gaps in joinery is sloppy work regardless of the style in which a piece is built.  Inaccurate measurements or cuts, inconsistently sized parts, tearout, using screws instead of traditional joinery, etc - out of pure laziness or inability - cannot be excused just because someone says it's "rustic."  It's still woodworking, it's just not "fine furniture."  Fine furniture, at least in my mind, is simply a piece that is built with a certain level of technical proficiency.  Beyond that, we get into a world of pure opinion and taste when it comes to design and material choices.  And if I decide my work looks better without knots and bark inclusions and old nail holes, then I'm right.  And if you decide your work looks better with those defects, then you're right.  A person is only a snob if they say that someone else's piece should have been built with different design choices or materials because it doesn't fit their particular tastes.

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Agreed. And maybe when my skills get more refined I will want to use more discretion in choosing lumber. But I hope not.

Like I said. It just bothers me that salvaged lumber or lumber with imperfections seams to be more commonly associated with furniture of lesser quality. If traditional jointery is used one could say that it takes a greater amount of skill and care to use rough and damaged lumber to build a quality piece that will last a long time.

But you are right. Turning my nose up at people who are picky about their lumber is no better than what I accused the op of. For that I apologize.

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In the end, we take raw material and make them into objects. Not one single individual can place a value on that object beyond dollars. The essential worth of the item is placed by what that piece means to you.

I can dig it.

 

Styles are different, but if you enjoy what you're doing and you're proud of what you've done, that's all that matters.

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As a pro, I am willing to pay more for better material. For me it is risk management to help insure the end product is better and that I am not wasting time trying to cut out the bad parts of the wood.  

 

Although I charge the client for it, and it is not a direct out of pocket expense for me, it raises the cost of the project and then it becomes more difficult to sell. 

 

On a personal level, I am still willing to spend more for premium wood. It reduces the amount of time working around the defective wood or trying to straighten material out. My time off the clock is worth something because it is limited. Since I am investing precious time in my own projects, I just want it to go as smoothly and quickly as possible. Once again, I am also managing the risk of wasted time and material even for my own projects. 

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Whether or not your designs are rustic or refined, to build a quality piece of furniture takes tremendous skill.  The skills might be different, but to assert one style takes more skill than the other, or to assert that your particular approach has more integrity, or believe it walks a higher moral ground, is wrong-headed, in my opinion. 

 

Take a look at Freddie's teak cabinets.  He went to tremendous lengths to achiece nice grain matching and color.  Furthermore, the lines and style is so simple and streamlined, there is nowhere to hide.  One gappy joint, a miscut miter, any tearout on the veneer and the piece is trashed.  That takes a tremendous amount of skill, patience, artistry, and yes, respect for the materials.  

 

That being said, working with less than perfect boards has its own challenges.  Tight joinery, highlighting the defects, balancing the grain, all takes skill and artistry.  

 

I live in chicago, which has a great variety of architecture.   The early stuff is all neoclassical, with concrete columns, faux reliefs,  and lots of ornament.  Many of my colleagues ooh and ahh over the beauty of the buildings, and they are right - they are beautiful.  tThese buildings are not the parthenon, they are not really that old, they are not innovative, but they are aesthetically pleasing.    But in the same breadth they dismiss the mies van der rohe buildings as a bunch of metal boxes.  But what they are missing is the precision, engineering, and design that goes into making something simple work.  As Mies said "god is in the details" and if you make a mistake,  you can't cover it up with a faux relief or some spackle.

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Like I said. It just bothers me that salvaged lumber or lumber with imperfections seams to be more commonly associated with furniture of lesser quality.

 

That's because - as I mentioned before - so many people use the term "rustic" to veil a poorly-constructed piece with what they consider a valid excuse for their ineptitude.  There happens to be a lot of examples of that lately because rustic/industrial is all the rage at the moment, and beginners and absolute know-nothings see these simple pieces and decide they could easily create something similar themselves, not realizing that there's always more than meets the eye when it comes to woodworking.  So they churn out garbage, and it's seen as such.  Right or wrong, that's why rustic pieces tend to be stereotyped in the fine woodworking world.  That's not to say that a rustic piece can't be built well and be classified as fine woodworking...it just happens to not be the first reaction of many woodworkers who seek a sleeker and more contemporary - or even traditional - piece of furniture.

 

As an aside...you sound a little defensive.  Who cares what people think about your taste?  I certainly don't.

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When I look at a knot or crack or twisted piece of grain, I see the same beauty that I see in highly sought after burl. I try to incorporate as much of it as I can into my designs and planning. I don't mean to say that builds using cleaner lumber has any less value than others. But for some reason I kinda take offense when I see people say things like "better wood" or "finer furniture" or imply that furniture utilizing such wood is of lesser quality.

It just different and in the it's what sells and what people want in their homes that matters, from a business perspective.

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From a business perspective I totally agree...only thing that matters is what puts food on the table, and right now the rustic thing is as hot as it gets.  There are a number of pros that come into our lumberyard and want only the most beat up and abused reclaimed boards we can get.  But that doesn't make it wrong for ME to look at those boards as absolutely worthless.  I see a cracked or rotted board, I see trash.  Our visions of woodworking are very different, but neither of us is wrong as long as the projects are being built with care and skilled hands.

 

Mike's architecture analogy is dead on.  Aesthetics is subjective, technical proficiency and quality of craftsmanship is not.  IMO :)

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Well my brother and sister in law just purchased about $4k worth of rustic "French country" style furniture. The pieces were ones that they were gonna commission me to build. I just didn't have the time to meet their deadlines. When I went to their new home and examined the furniture it was garbage. Beautiful at a glance but all wood screws and butt joints (really bad ones) underneath. Way less quality than what they paid for. Made me really sad that I wasn't able to build their furniture for them.

Not that I am an expert. I am definitely a novice, but at least when I use screws they are only there to reinforce the glue joint and I counter sink the screw heads and insert wood plugs.

Maybe I am a little defensive? I get the impression that amongst people with skills levels that I aspire to, reclaimed or salvaged type lumber doesn't really have a place in fine woodworking. Sure there are a few pieces like that on here, but not that many.

There is an ancient Chinese practice of taking broken pottery and filling the cracks with gold and putting the piece back in service. Because they have a belief that scars and imperfections tell a story and bring about depth of beauty and character. Is this not the sort of thing that deserves respect amongst "fine woodworkers"?

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There's nothing wrong with reclaimed lumber or lumber with defects as long as the skill and technique are there to assemble the piece correctly.  Not everyone enjoys the looks that come with that lumber, some do.  It's a personal choice.  

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I respect the guys that can work with twisted knotty weathered wood and create functional furniture out of it without using a nail gun and shortcut sloppy craftsmanship.

I have one piece that my maternal grandfather built. Most of my early wood working was on the equipment from his shop years after he had passed on. It is not that well made or finished but it has a certain rustic appeal. It sits 10 feet from where I sit and I consider it a prized possession. I also treasured the time when I was able to teach my paternal grandfather a few things when I was in my mid 20's.

Have pride in what you consider worthy,and then do it to the best of your ability! Even particle board has it's place in woodworking. It's a very flat and stable substrate for large fine veneer panels, but I refuse to use it in kitchen or bath cabinets. That's just my preference.

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Maybe I am a little defensive? I get the impression that amongst people with skills levels that I aspire to, reclaimed or salvaged type lumber doesn't really have a place in fine woodworking. 

 

I've never gotten that impression.  Check out the 2x4 contests, where people do stunning, artistic pieces with one home depot 2x4.  It's not pallet wood, but the idea is the same.  

 

Different people have different tastes.  Just like some woodworkers prefer to avoid power tools while others drool over more horse power, and some like exotic imported species while others are happy with cherry and walnut.  Some like straight grained clear pieces, while other like splits, knots, forks. Lots of fancy, expensive dinner tables with live edges and splits held together with  bowties.

 

I do hear an occasional comments.  Experienced wood workers usually appreciate carefully selected species, color, and grain, so you hear some groans when people talk about painting wood.  But I think it's good natured.  Sometimes people will talk about pallet wood as short hand for, "I didn't pay for the wood, I didn't worry about the species, color, or grain, I just grabbed whatever was around and knocked something together."  Which is fine, but don't expect people to go "oooh aaah I wish I could do that."

 

But if you make something that shows that you cared about the design or the craftsmanship, I don't think people will care if you used pallet wood, or knotty wood, or reclaimed wood, or whatever.

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...your standards were much higher than the grade of the lumber.

 

Perfectly said.  The disconnect between the standards to which 2x's are milled and dried and the standards to which a furniture maker works mean that you need to buy substantially more than the plans specify.

 

Just for an ornery and curious digression, does it work the other way?  i.e. What would it look like to have materials milled to a higher standard than the project?  I guess this is precisely what happens every time the children go sifting through Dad's scrap bin:  They're pulling out pieces of immaculately milled hardwood and then decorating it for scribbles, paint and stickers.

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