Fxguy Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Hey guys, I know that this will be a touchy topic, but I'd like to ask the advice from anyone who has gotten paid for their woodworking how they got started. I'm not looking to go full professional cabinet maker or furniture maker, but it would be nice to make a little money off some projects like pen turning or making boxes / puzzle boxes. My favorite thing so far has been making toys for my son and if I could make two at the same time and make a little money to out fit the shop with a new bandsaw it would be awesome! Any advice or suggestions? Like I said, I don't want to make my living off woodworking (although it would be nice :-) ) , I just want to maybe earn a little extra to buy / upgrade my tools without spending 40+ hours a week. So to be able to make a few things here and there on the weekend and maybe sell them either at a craft /art show or an online store like etsy or something would be nice. And if I could generate maybe $500 over the course of 3-6 months then I'm happy. Thanks in advance for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryside Workshop Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 There are several sites out there that help with that. Check out the Drunken Woodworker. He has several videos that talk about the subject. You can check out my website which I have articles on the subject at www.countrysideworkshop.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Fxguy - Your question is one of the most common ones that I get. I make a large part of my living from the shop, but I have built my reputation through the trades as a remodel contractor that does custom built-ins and furnishings. I know this is not the route that you want to go, but I am constantly exposed to opportunities for woodworkers to get sweet little projects all the time. They are the kind that do not include remodeling, but do include some repair, and some that are just custom needs that should fall within the capability of a reasonably competent woodworker. I am also well connected to many woodworking craftsmen that make their living from the shop in a variety of ways. Most of them do the circuit of craft shows, and most all of those target the juried shows rather than the lower-end ones and they do pretty good. They also sell through various galleries, gift shops, stores, and online. I also know some guys that do just what you speak of, just bring in some money for part-time work in the shop. They just want to bring in some money to pay for their hobby or supplement their income, or mostly because they love woodworking and it is a bonus to turn a dollar with it. All of these various situations that I observe and people I know prove one thing: You can make money from woodworking at any level, you just have to determine which level that is. Determine the product you are going to make or the service that you are going to provide, and how to reach the people that will buy the product or service you are selling. In case you did not catch them, I did a video series based on the question I get "How do you sell your projects?" It is not as much of how to set up a business, but myself and 3 other guys talk about our woodworking businesses and how we sell our work. The great thing is that there is a good variety of perspective and insight to the world of woodworking. No matter what our differences, we are all businesses at various levels, and we all deal with the same things such as overhead, time spent manufacturing, and building a reputation to get customers. In the end, we all are applying the same business principles, it is just the specifics of how we reach our market that differs. All of the videos can be found here at the WoodTalk Forum as my most recent 4 posts or you can find them at my site: http://americancraftsmanworkshop.com/ The good news is that you can do it at the level that you have expressed, and it is fairly easy to do with a reasonable amount of effort. Making a living at it, well, that is a whole different game, is a lot of risk, and I do not recommend it to most people. The financial sacrifice and stress is more than most can handle. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fxguy Posted September 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 I also know some guys that do just what you speak of, just bring in some money for part-time work in the shop. They just want to bring in some money to pay for their hobby or supplement their income, or mostly because they love woodworking and it is a bonus to turn a dollar with it. This is EXACTLY how I feel. My goal really is just to pay for the hobby itself. My financial situation doesn't allow much else. I owe $160,000 in student loans in addition to what I owe on my mortgage. I also have a wife and a 1 year old that get a lot of my time, so I know it isn't realistic to be able to completely support my family by woodworking full time. Right now I just enjoy it, and having recently gone through many tool upgrades, I've seen the difference a quality tool can make. Having said that, there are still many tools in my shop that could be replaced by something with a little more quality. Especailly my 9" Craftsman Bandsaw. Don't get me started on that! As I said in the original post, I am discovering a love of making smaller type projects, particularly toys and puzzles, and figured if I can find a way to sell some of them and earn enough to upgrade my bandsaw, then I am satisfied. BTW - Thanks for the links guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Brad Bernhart addresses how to sell your work at about the 5:30 mark. He says to try everything. Many others have said the same as I talk to them. They try everything to find out what works for them. What works for one may not specifically work for another. One thing that kills your opportunity to sell is if you have the personality of asphalt. If you are not personable, anything you do that puts you in contact with the public will kill your sales. I have talked to guys that are great craftsmen and they have no people skills and are very negative. It is no fun pointing out some of the issue as they don't want to hear it, but almost always reply with so-and-so says the same thing. So I am not the only one to point it out anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Brad Bernhart addresses how to sell your work at about the 5:30 mark. He says to try everything. Many others have said the same as I talk to them. They try everything to find out what works for them. What works for one may not specifically work for another. One thing that kills your opportunity to sell is if you have the personality of asphalt. If you are not personable, anything you do that puts you in contact with the public will kill your sales. I have talked to guys that are great craftsmen and they have no people skills and are very negative. It is no fun pointing out some of the issue as they don't want to hear it, but almost always reply with so-and-so says the same thing. So I am not the only one to point it out anyway. Just to clarify: that is to try everything to zero in on what works. When you see what is not working, drop those and focus on the sales avenues that are working. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 I think one of the most important things is that you just start doing SOMETHING. If you are not active in the community, then the word is not spreading and your reputation is not building for what you desire to do. Perfect examples from my own experience just this week: I got an invitation to apply to a local, juried arts and crafts show called WinterFair. It is the sister art show to SummerFair where I interviewed the other woodworkers in my recent videos. It is put on by the Yellowstone Art Museum (known locally as the YAM.) Basically, I get 3-4 invitations to juried shows a year because I am a juried artist to a past show, the Western Design Conference (Google it, it is high-end) I have shown in a couple of museum settings and now my name has been spread around to other shows. This all happens because I am very actively pursuing my interest in the craft. It takes action and effort, then you get the momentum going and your name starts getting around your own community, among the galleries, museums, and juried shows. Then people also start coming to you. Now the word is spreading by word of mouth due to reputation and this momentum is set in motion by my continual action and effort. Last night, my wife and I went to an artist's reception for a painter. I saw some friends there, whom I have done some great work for, and they know the gallery owner very well. My friends asked why I was not showing at the gallery and I did not really have any response so they called the gallery owner over and introduced us. They gushed over all the fine work I had done for them and encouraged us to have a talk. So the gallery owner started asking questions, we talked, and I gave her my business card. She was impressed with my response and the image on my card, which is one of my signature pieces and this all meshed with what our common friend had been saying. Now she wants to add me to the gallery and my images to the portfolio that she uses to sell artist's work to her clients in a very exclusive areas of Montana and Wyoming. These people fall into the uber-wealthy category. Will it lead to sales? I don't know, but it is still called a potential opportunity. My friends introduced us because I have proven myself to them, and to some of their friends as well. When I work for one person, it is very likely I will work for one of their friends and the web keeps growing. This only happens because I am - once again - very active in the shop building projects and moving them into people's homes which builds a reputation, which continues to bring sales and the momentum keeps going. You really need to start building. While you have to go into it with some thought and planning, don't over-think it either. You will also have to go into it with flexibility to change (which I have no doubt you realize this.) Start building, get some pictures to create a portfolio, start making cold calls to galleries, gift shops, specialty shops, etc. See what the reaction is. Sometimes they may not want what you have to offer but will ask "Can you build such-and such instead? We get a lot of requests for those." That is the feedback you need. But none of it will happen unless you get active and get out there. Set up shop online. Gauge the response you get there. Maybe some of your stuff sells online but none of the brick and mortar places are a good outlets for your product. Maybe you end up selling some items through the brick and mortar stores and a different line of items on the internet. That is OK, you are diversified and now have several small streams of income which merge into a bigger one instead of just trying to score one big stream of income. Brad Bernhart talks about this in his video and I have heard the exact same experience from several others. Another thing occurs when you start building, you start understanding what it takes to make something and you start figuring out more efficient means of production. Now you are getting experience, and with experience comes efficiency. With increased efficiency it is more likely that profitability will follow. You will figure out that some things are worth making and some things are not. Here's what you should do: get out, start building some things, record your time and material costs and note thoughts on how you can decrease production times to make them more profitable. Make more than one so you can start to see the benefits of improved production methods and familiarity. The first one of any item is the most time consuming and therefore the most expensive one. By making it a few more times you will start to understand how fast you can really pop one item out. Use those items to photograph and start the portfolio to show potential outlets and to post online. Take the extras with you when you make cold calls. They may be interested enough you need to leave some at the store, saying that you can get some out in 2-3 weeks will likely kill the deal. Seize the opportunity at that moment to get the goods in their store and start the relationship immediately. Get it in your head that it is OK to make a profit and even necessary in order for you to continue doing it and to get more tools. Otherwise you are literally paying out of pocket to sell your stuff to other people. Don't even begin to go down that road, set your mind right to begin with. Now go back and READ PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH OUT LOUD TO YOURSELF WITH YOUR WIFE NEXT TO YOU AS A WITNESS 2 more times. Having the ideas is fine. Going into it with a plan is a great idea. But it will take action (building projects and start making connections) to start defining those ideas and fleshing out which ideas are viable. Is your mind spinning now? Wait until you put your thoughts into action and start seeing results. You will really be pumped then. Doing this and getting results for side money is actually easy and fairly low risk. I highly encourage those interested in pursuing it. Going full time - well, I have stated before that is very high risk and I don't recommend it to most. But I encourage and support you to try this on the side. P.S. Christmas season is coming up. You need to be getting your product line out NOW to capitalize on a great sales opportunity. For sales and shows, you always need to think a good 6 months down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted September 6, 2014 Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 Todd is giving a lot of great advice. I recommend reading thru it a few times. Start out with a few products, listen to the feedback at craft fairs, and adjust what you make and the price point at which you can sell. Find something unique you can batch out easily with a decent profit margin. My oldest son started making a few things last fall for our Church's craft fair ( 13 at the time ) , he ended up in two holiday craft stores selling about 10 different items. In one store he could only sell 3 items so he wouldn't compete with one of the paying crafters ( space was donated, so no complaints ). He ended up selling more $$ of his limited 3 items, none of which were over $20. He didn't have much inventory to start out with, so he struggled to keep up all season with demand. He has many more items now, and has dropped the items which didn't sell. He is starting a pretty decent enterprise in his spare time outside of school, boy scouts, and basketball. He is still working on his web based store, but it is expected to be ready by the holiday season. He has listened to the feedback from customers and others at craft fairs, and adjusted. Remember to be flexible and adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Any advice or suggestions? Like I said, I don't want to make my living off woodworking (although it would be nice :-) ) , I just want to maybe earn a little extra to buy / upgrade my tools without spending 40+ hours a week. So to be able to make a few things here and there on the weekend and maybe sell them either at a craft /art show or an online store like etsy or something would be nice. And if I could generate maybe $500 over the course of 3-6 months then I'm happy.Are you on any of the social networks like Facebook, Google+, Twitter, or Pinterest? If not I'd recommend you join one, and post pictures of your personal projects. I got a lot of commissions from friends and co-workers who saw pictures I posted, and would ask what would it cost for you to make me such and such. As a side note, I think society might be slowly turning away from the cheap/throwaway mentality it's had for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I have found commissioned projects much more profitable than trying to sell little pieces that are already made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 It takes a while for a part-time woodworker to figure out accurate pricing of one-off custom pieces. Another issue is that the liability of working for clients is high compared to doing small productions of items in the shop to sell online or at a craft show. The guys I know knock it down pretty good at the craft shows and the liability issue is very low. Once a client hands over money for a custom project, they want to see some pretty serious progress. This would not be conducive to the desires of working part-time and figures into the high liability issue of ending up with a client that holds out money at the end because they are dissatisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Once a client hands over money for a custom project, they want to see some pretty serious progress. This would not be conducive to the desires of working part-time and figures into the high liability issue of ending up with a client that holds out money at the end because they are dissatisfied.For the commissions I've done, I've always made it overly clear, that this is a hobby and my other obligations come first and thus it could be a while before the project is finished. It probably also helps that unless its a huge project I only take payment once the project is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Dan S - You bring up a good point. The conditions of the agreement such as you stated would certainly cause for a client to be more patient. I certainly had framed my thoughts in the terms and conditions that I have to make in order to survive as a pro. I always have to get money up front as it is necessary to survive, but that is not necessarily true for the part-timer. The situation and conditions of operation tend to be a bit different. And as for you making the terms clear with your clients, well done sir;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 And as for you making the terms clear with your clients, well done sir;)I think that's the biggest reason doing work on the side has gone well for me. I'm also a lot more critical of my own work than any of my clients have ever been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 I'm the same way.. Most of my commissions are done on my schedule and stated clearly to the client up front. Now, with that said, I usually get the job done sooner than I quoted which always makes the client happy. If I have a client that wants a drop dead date, I make sure to leave myself enough time to get the job done. If I agree to that drop dead date, then it's on me to make sure it's done. If the client wants it sooner than I'm comfortable with then I let the client know and it becomes their decision. I refuse to cut quality and corners to make a few bucks. Like Dan, I usually don't take any money up front unless it's a really big project or something so unique that I can't move it in some other sales arenas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fxguy Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I love this site! So many great people willing to share great information! So as I'm reading through the replies, am I understanding correctly that most of you do individual commissioned projects? So basically it's mostly on a project to project basis instead of making a single item and selling multiple copies if that? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I have done both. I've batched out things like tea light candle holders, lift top boxes, and cutting boards. I've also designed and built custom one off pieces like wine racks, picture frames, and tables. Personally, I find the profit margin is a lot lower on batched out items. I also find it a lot less enjoyable to make multiple of something. It feels to much like assembly line work, and that's not something I care for. So as I'm reading through the replies, am I understanding correctly that most of you do individual commissioned projects? So basically it's mostly on a project to project basis instead of making a single item and selling multiple copies if that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The reality is that there are advantages and disadvantages to each type of project be it small production runs or custom work. With making an item in small production runs, you become very efficient, there is good control of waste, and you get to know your numbers for material and labor very well so it is sold at the proper price. The disadvantage is that it can get boring and feel like assembly line work just as Dan S. stated. If you are doing a show, there will be a deadline to get stuff ready in time and you will work your butt off with that assembly line work. With custom work, each one is a fresh challenge. But the risk is higher of not bidding it properly. If you just starting out, the risk is actually pretty high you are not going to understand the labor involved and you will miss the bid. It is a simple fact, the most expensive one you make of anything is the first one. In doing custom work, after you do several projects over time you see that each project is different but many of them are close enough to another, you can accurately bid it. So, with custom work, each project is a fun challenge but the risk of losing is high. In either case, you are still applying the same principles of knowing your material and labor costs. If you are just doing it part time anyway, the idea of missing the bid is a non-issue really if you are not relying on it for your living. It is just extra pocket money for another tool anyway. That is why I say go for it as a part-time gig, it really can be fun and the risk that you aren't going to be able to pay the mortgage is not an issue at that level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddclippinger Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I want to point out, as I look back at all of the responses, there is no right or wrong. Everyone's experience is going to be different, there are so many variables. All you can do is try it and see what happens for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryside Workshop Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Make a few one off items. What I do is actually make several of a couple things to sell at trade markets but I take a few higher priced custom items as well. I may or may not sell those but those items might score me a custom order. I also take a binder with images of other things I have built. I use those smaller items to generate cash but I also use them as a marketing tool. In order to do this part time or full time you have to market. If your name is not out there then no one will purchase from you. Trade markets are the best at that because you can see up into the thousands of people. You now have a chance to hand out business cards and get sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Some great info here!!! Just curious .. has anyone tried the online vendor shops like etsy? How do those work for you? Worth trying even with shipping costs for small medium items? Sent from my old phone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryside Workshop Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Etsy is going to crap. They started letting large companies post on there now. It is harder to get seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Oh that sucks!! Is there any other online small vendor shop type sites? Sent from my old phone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryside Workshop Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 You can try custom built Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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