First real project - a couple noob questions

[Scott Bailey]

I recently started getting into woodworking as a hobby and have made a couple simple projects, mostly outdoor stuff (a sitting bench and a pretty simple greenhouse cover for our raised garden bed - that mostly out of PVC).  I have been practicing simple joinery with some poplar and can now fairly reliably cut simple finger joints by hand.  I don't have many tools so I have to do most of the work by hand (I have a router with a table, a few basic bits, a miter saw, a really old circ saw, and a jigsaw.  for hand tools I have a #4 smooth plane that I got from an antique store and cleaned up, it works quite well, a cheap block plane, a couple chisels, a rasp, and lots of sandpaper). 

 

My mom collects decorative boxes and loves the smell of aromatic cedar, so I found a nice pre-milled piece of cedar and would like to make a small box for her for Christmas as my first real project.  I do have a couple questions that I thought I'd seek guidance for as I delve into this.

 

the design of the box is fairly simple.  it's 3/4" stock and the box will be essentially rectangular, about 4" x 7" and about 4" tall.  what I want to do is attach the base and top flush to the sides and round over all of the edges and corners to give it a rounded look on the outside and maintain the rectangle inside.  I should be able to round over everything with the tools I have, that isn't my question.  my questions:

 

1. with 3/4 stock what do you guys suggest as the best joinery for the sides?  I figure 3/4 is thick enough to accommodate just about any joint but frankly I'm not certain at all as I've never done this.  (I plan to attach the sides to the base with a fairly straight forward rabbet joint).  as I said, I can do finger joints and, if it makes sense, miter joints as well.  I haven't tried dovetails yet though I know those would look good and I have some poplar I can practice on.  If I round over the sides, will it compromise the joints too much? Is there one type that is better for this kind of design than others?  I'd like to do finger joints as I have more confidence in myself with those, but just thought I'd ask.

 

2. I am also struggling with how to attach/design the top. I could just put a slight rabbet in the top and sit it flush on the top with a small handle or knob, so all you do is lift up the top, but I also thought about small hinges too with perhaps a little groove or lip on the front where she could lift the top up.  Not sure that would maintain the overall rounded look of the box though as even a little bit of hinge sticking out the back (and the groove on the front) would disrupt the clean look I'm looking for (for that matter, a knob would too).  My mom's hands don't work so well these days so I don't want to make it a struggle for her to open the box, so just sitting the lid flush on top with no additional help is probably not an option.  any suggestions welcome.

 

3. finally, just a quick question about the finish. I will of course leave the inside unfinished (except the top) to preserve that wonderful scent, but on the outside I want to retain the look of the cedar, the grain is really beautiful.  I thought about a few coats of de-waxed shellac, but of course would welcome any suggestions there too. durability isn't a huge concern, she lives in a dry climate and this will likely just sit on a shelf somewhere and not get used terribly often. I do want the finish to look good though.

 

thanks in advance!

[..Kev]

There are lots of ways you can build a box!  You could do finger joints, you could do miters (you could even add splines like in the box Fretless Llama is doing in the journal section), you could do dovetails, the list goes on and on.  

 

Really, the same applies to the lid.  It really depends on the look you want.  Do you want a flush lid, a lid with an overhang, etc.  Your hinges could also influence this decision as well.  

 

And then there's finish..  You guessed it, lots of options here too    You could spray lacquer, you could spray a WB finish, you could do a wipe on poly, you could use the shellac, etc..  

[Beechwood Chip]

For that box I would use .... box joints, otherwise known as finger joints.

[4-Square]

As you begin your box project, you'll verify the atage, "still waters run deep." Taunton Press has several excellent publications to help you navigate: http://www.tauntonstore.com/woodworking/plans-projects.html. I recomend you invest the $9 - $29 to get one. This small investment will aleviate numerous headaches -- trust me. I have read, 'Basic Box Making' and recomend it. I also have the eBook which I received for renewing my FWW mag -- normally don't like eBooks, but this one is well done... Good luck.

 

PS. As for aeromatic ceder -- use it as an insert, not the primary box itself. Note: this was very pupular during the inter-war years for ciggerate boxes, etc. Why you ask? One thing about boxes -- to look good, they must have flawless joinery (remember those still waters). It's hard to create flawless joinery with aeromatic cedar. Not saying it can't be done, but it will be a challange for a new woodworker. Personally, I'd recomend Genuine Mahagany for a small first project -- it's probably the easiest species to work and end-up with crisp joinery... If you don't have a relationship with a local hardwood dealer, then go to Bell Forrest Products and the 'pick your board' section -- select the straighest grain stick you can... If you don't see what you want, just call them -- they are extreemly helpful.

 

PPS. Since it's a gift, you're probably trying to deliver the best you can. I would plan to make two (maybe three) boxes in parallel. I guarantee you'll screw the pooch at some point... The last thing you want is to get a second stick in the middle of the project -- trust me, no matter how hard you look, you won't fine one that matches... Get yourself some poplar, aspen, etc to setup your tools, practice your cuts, etc prior to comitting the final stock. Make two of each component as you go along so when you snap-off a dovetail/finger/etc, cut-off the top in the wrong place, etc you don't loose time and are not tempted to shoot yourself...

[Scott Bailey]

@4-square, That's true about the cedar, it's pretty soft and was a concern though I do think that will also make it easier to round off the corners (though maybe I'm wrong about that too) ... I think I will work it anyway and take your suggestion about mahogany as well.  No reason I can't do both as all of this is a learning process for me either way.  I am not above trying and discovering those deep waters, I am one of those people who learns fairly well by screwing up a bit. I actually almost bought basic box making but I do not have a table saw (i know i know) and looking through that book pretty much every cut, joint, etc is cut on one.  I will definitely look at some of the others though.  thanks

[Coop]

stb, try a book by Doug Stowe http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Box-Making-Doug-Stowe/dp/1561588520. Not that I'm trying to pass on your multiple questions, but this book was my box Bible when I first started and every step in his instructions are very detailed and geared for the beginner. He has come out with several others, but this one will get you off on the right foot and answer all of your questions. Good luck and post pics when you get it completed.

Oh, he likes Watco Danish oil which is fine, but a couple of guys here have me using Arm-R-Seal which I like even better.

[wtnhighlander]

Just to confuse things with yet another opinion...For a box as small as you mentioned, 3/4" stock may look a bit clunky. However, you could take advantage of that extra thickness, and sculpt the sides for a more rounded, organic look. Without a power carver or grinder, it will take some time, but a rasp and coarse sandpaper will remove stock from cedar pretty fast.

As for the lid, I suggest the lift-off design over hinged. As a first gift project, good execution of simple details will provide much more satisfaction than extra complexity and poorer execution will.

Regarding the joints, the finger or box joint is a very strong choice, but aestheticly, it may not be as appealing (personal taste). If you can get a good grain match around the corners, a mitered box is really beautiful, but miters are weak, and not easy to execute well without tools specific to the purpose.

Now about the finish. Be very aware that aromatic cedar will NOT retain that pinkish red heartwood color when any oil based finish or shellac is applied. It will become very much brown. I haven't tried it on cedar myself, but spray lacquer has caused the least amount of color change to any wood I have used it on.

[4-Square]

<try a book by Doug Stowe http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1561588520>

That's the one... I received the eBook for renewing my FWW... I think it's about $10, and a very good deal at that price... In general, Taunton puts-out a nice product... They were my favorite woodworking publishers, now LostArtPress takes top-honors in the shop... As a side note, I'd suggest Campaign Furniture: http://lostartpress.com/products/campaign-furniture. Until I read the book, I never really gave much thought to the style... But be warned, you'll end-up with more new furniture projects...

 

<I suggest the lift-off design over hinged>

+1

 

<As a first gift project, good execution of simple details will provide much more satisfaction than extra complexity and poorer execution will.>

+2

 

<aestheticly, it may not be as appealing (personal taste)>

If not executed well, yea...

 

<a mitered box is really beautiful, but miters are weak, and not easy to execute well without tools specific to the purpose>

+2... The real issue is joint reinforcement... Keyed/splines/etc can look great and provide reinforcement. Not knowing the tools at the OPs disposable, it would be hard to recomend a mitered box...

[Scott Bailey]

cutting miters isn't a problem, I have a good miter saw, it's joining them effectively that is.  as you say, end grain on end grain isn't great though I could get some epoxy but I don't really have the tools or rather the confidence to reinforce miters effectively.  maybe I should practice that too ... but in the end i prefer some sort of mechanical joint and I may do some practice dovetails.  

 

@ wtnhighlander, what you describe is pretty much what I'm going for and I plan to round over the corners by hand, or mostly at least, I may round over partway with the router and finish by hand.  I don't mind taking time to sand/rasp away, and since I discovered the wonders of making my own small sanding blocks I have gotten better at that part anyway. 

 

I will definitely check out the box book, and thanks all for the suggestions!

[4-Square]

==>cutting miters isn't a problem, I have a good miter saw

Most tuned-up chop-saws are great at 90d...

Many are OK at 45d, but the left-right swing is usually not exactly 90d.

The upshot is that you won't get perfect 45s . The small error is exagurated as you make/assemble the successive components -- this called stacking tolerance (you are 'stacking' small errors in tolerance into a big error -- to borrow a term from our Machinist friends.).

 

The key to making a great looking small box is partly design, but also highly-dependent on clean execution. Since the box is held close to the face for appreciation (read this as inspection), the crisp execution of joinery is paramount. It's extreemly rare to get the requisite precision off-the-saw... This is usually OK, because the final miter is obtained on a shooting board, disk sander, sandpaper on glass (the 'scary miter' method -- I just made this term up, but it seems appropriate), and/or several other techniques... The saw gets you close, but you need to dial-in the final miter with other techniques. So get the book, then decide on execition workflow....

 

My method: I've got a purpose-made miter sled for the table saw. I've got a Forrest speciality grind that's optimized for joinery (believe it's the #7, but I'd have to check). Part of it is the blade's grind, but more importantly, the blade is only used for joinery so it's always sharp... Depenging on how many miters I have to finish, I'll either use sandpaper/glass or my miter jig on the disk sander...

 

Epoxy is out... For a variety of reasons, HHG is usually considered the best adhesive for small boxes. When you get to glue-up, check-back-in and we can discuss adhesives...

[Scott Bailey]

I cut some miters on my saw for a greenhouse cover that I built and fine tuned them with sandpaper and a protractor bevel that I have and they turned out pretty much dead square.  that particular item isn't anything I care a ton about but I feel pretty good that I can do miter cuts and tune them well enough to end up square and tight.  but I'm probably not going to do that kind of joint as it is, probably box/finger joints but I think I need to at least give dovetails a practice round first to see what I think of my own abilities there. one of the problems is that I don't have a really good fine kerf saw, it's an older miter box saw and so I just cut pretty far off the line and pare back with my chisel.  first few tries on the joints turned out predictably poor but after about a box worth of practice tries I started getting the hang of them. I have made a practice box just square with finger joints, nothing fancy at all it was just practice, and most of them are nice and tight - best part is each one was better than the last.  I have lots of time, so I intend to do a few more practices and go from there.  I will also get a box book though my wife will give me a funny look (she thinks they're silly, and I keep telling her that they are mini versions of what I will one day build).  

 

thanks again for all the feedback, you guys are great

[Rapid Roger]

Of course this is not cedar (but, it could be lined with cedar) but, this might give you an idea or two for your box and  what the above post's are suggesting.

I make a lot of small boxes and use various designs all the time. If you need other ideas just ask, I have about 30 pictures of different styles of boxes.

 

 

Rog

[Scott Bailey]

that's beautiful Roger, what kinds of wood did you use ?  (gave me an idea for the lid by the way!)

[wouldwurker]

I'd highly recommend Doug Stowe's basic box making video on Taunton (fine woodworking). Sign up for a month for 4.99 just for this vid alone. Very in depth and one of my favorites.

He shows very a specific methods for a flush top in which he essentially makes a 'bottom' on the top as well (floating in a dado groove), then later saws it off an inch or two lower (with the final bit done with a hand saw). Can't get much more flush than that.

If you don't want to do hinge work, a pop top lid works great and is an easy build.

You had asked a about rounding over the corners. If you do choose mitre joints. A round over really makes the grain look goofy..learned that lesson the hard way.

[wouldwurker]

Here's an example of a pop top lid. Just a big chunky rabbet