High End Plane Blades


RJsumthn

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Hello again everyone! It has been a while since I've been on here. Life has been getting in the way of my woodworking recently but I'm slowly getting back into it again.

 

Anyway, so I have splurged a little and I bought a new Veritas Custom Bench Plane. It is a number 7 with a medium handle, wide nob, 45* frog, and PM-V11 blade.  I also got a Veritas Large shoulder plane. The planes came in the mail and they are awesome. However these are my first high end planes that I have purchased and was wondering what you guys do to the blade to get it to tuned up perfectly. 

 

In the box it comes with a piece of paper that says the blade has been lapped and that it does not need additional work besides a micro bevel if one desires. Is this true? The blade appears to have been ground with a pretty fine grit but it is by no means a mirror finish on the back. Would it do more harm than good if I polished the back?

 

I also bought a Hock blade and chip breaker to put in my Stanley No.4. The same question applies, should I polish the back or leave it alone?

 

My current sharpening system is DMT Course Dia-Sharp plate which I use for heavy removal and flattening my King 1000/6000 water stone. This works ok but I don't get that mirror polish that everyone talks about. So I splurged again and ordered a Shapton 8000 grit ceramic stone. I also ordered some green honing compound and leather to make a strop. This should get me to that mirror finish, right? I sure hope so.

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RJ you don't need to go any further with sharpening media unless you want to. On the Veritas blade, I'm not sure how they come. If they come with a 25deg grind bevel then adding a secondary bevel of 30deg will make the edge more durable and will be just as sharp. A mirror is not required. I only hear good things about the quality of Veritas blades. I would hone a secondary bevel, flip the iron over, and remove the burr. Your honing media is very fine so a strop may not be required.

I would assume the same of the Hock. Having said that I have never owned any of these but nevertheless the above should have you good.

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Graham, the Veritas blade comes with a 30 degree primary bevel. 

 

Thanks for the advice. I think I will make a couple passes on the back of the blade with the 8000 grit shapton stone first and see what it looks like at that point. I'll keep you informed as to how it goes

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You would do more harm than good working the backs of those new blades.  I would just do your final honing on your highest grit and call it good.

 

As far as not getting a mirror finish, it is prolly cause you are mixing sharpeneing media.  Subtle (and not so subtle) differences in the numbers systems will do this.  Like Graham said--and listen to everything to Graham says ;)--a mirror finish is not required.  Sharp is as sharp is.

 

miw

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There is no cabinetmaker worth his salt who isn't going to verify flatness of any new cutter and put in a little work on his finest stone even if it is.

 

You should always take a few strokes on the flat face of the cutter using your finest stone to verify the cutter's condition. If it registers flat then go ahead and take thirty or so strokes and call it done.  If it's not flat, then drop back to something coarser and make it flat and then work your way up to polished with whatever media you have available.

 

I haven't read the propaganda instruction sheet to which you refer but it almost sounds as if an assertion is being made the the back will never have to be touched which is of course ridiculous.  A new cutter's flat face is going to see your fine stone in the very near future when backing off (flexing/polishing the burr) during honings.  If you use the cutter hard the first day you'll need to hone every hour or so anyway (PMV-whatever or not).  Accordingly, it makes no sense not to see what you have at the outset.

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You should always take a few strokes on the flat face of the cutter using your finest stone to verify the cutter's condition. If it registers flat then go ahead and take thirty or so strokes and call it done.  If it's not flat, then drop back to something coarser and make it flat and then work your way up to polished with whatever media you have available.

 

 

Totally agree that the flatness should be verified.  The danger here is if the reference surface isn't flat or perhaps issues with operator technique could worsen the perfectly flat back right out the box.  I have seen dozens and dozens of high quality replacement blades brought back to the store for return due to the new owner jacking them up.

 

miw

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I'm reasonalby sure that his Shapton 8,000 is flat *enough*  And what are you going to do anyway?  You have to use what you have and you have to hone.  Honing requires working the back.  It's unavoidable.  Most stones are flat enough over the relevant area.  It's perfectly possible to keep a back perfectly flat on a very dished stone.  The honing wonks don't want you to know it, but it's true. 

 

Of all the mistakes I've personally made in woodworking, practically every one imaginable, not being able to register a cutter flat on a honing stone I'm happy to say is not one of them.  I have no explanation for your customers other than that woodworking might not be for them.

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miw, you make me smile  :), through the prism of the internet I might seem brighter than I actually am, take me with a pinch of salt, i'm twice as daft as you could possibly imagine  :).

 

Thanks RJ, that's interesting about the bevel being ground at 30deg rather than the archetypal 25deg. I wonder how it copes with lower angles? Looks like you opened pandora's box with your question though! Raise the burr, flip over remove the burr, check for wicked sharp > make something  :).

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Derek, I think that is the only time I've heard the LN blades being so much better than the LV. I've always heard they are pretty much the same. Do anyone else have an opinion about this?

 

Also, in the video the Schwarz does hit the back of the blade but he starts at a 1000 grit shapton stone then to the 8000 grit.

 

I'm heading out to the shop now so I'll keep you posted how it goes.

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My bench planes are all LN and I have a few LV joinery planes. Blades certainly seem comparable, but I'm treating them differently. 

 

All my LN blades have come dead flat and sharp enough to get an end grain shaving. Very pleased with the initial quality. That being said, none are in a condition for me to start working with them without either some additional honing on my strop or, in the case of the bench planes, adding a slight camber and re-sharpening & honing. 

 

A mirror polish on the back of a plane iron, from what I understand, is pointless. I use the ruler trick and it's worked like a charm. I don't care what the backs look like. A chisel is a different story and I have all of mine dead flat and polished to a mirror finish. The back of a chisel is actually integral to the use of the tool, so flatness is important. The mirror finish is for vanity. 

 

If it were me unpacking that LV No.7 I'd put a slight camber on it, re-hone it, and be done with it. 

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It is impossible to avoid a polished back but of course you shouldn't want to.

 

It will become polished, inevitably, when backing off during successive honings. You may choose to only polish a small area by a slight lift (which by the way works better on a treated strop and avoids over-beveling), or you may do a decent sized section which is of course easier if the cutter arrives flat from the manufacturer.

 

Or nature just takes its course as you back off over time, slight lift or not.

 

One way or the other, it's going to happen.

 

I'm always surprised when I read threads like this that seem to skirt the inevitability of it all.

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I took the Veritas no 7 blade to the 8000 grit stone and started on the back. It was dead flat so I put it in my honing guide and put a micro bevel at about 32 degrees and slightly cambered the blade. I installed it back in the plane and made a few passes and it a dream. When I first got the plane I made a few passes on a board and I had some slight tearout so I went back to that board and it cleared it right up.

 

The Hock blade was a different story. I had to take it down to my coarse diamond plate and work my way up. But once it was done I put it in my old stanley no. 4 I got shaving thinner than I thought were possible. 

 

 

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Derek, I think that is the only time I've heard the LN blades being so much better than the LV. I've always heard they are pretty much the same. Do anyone else have an opinion about this?

 

Also, in the video the Schwarz does hit the back of the blade but he starts at a 1000 grit shapton stone then to the 8000 grit.

 

I'm heading out to the shop now so I'll keep you posted how it goes.

 

There are no blades on this Earth that are flatter than the LV blades. I have watched them being ground at the LV factory. When they specify flat, they mean "flat". This is not propaganda. It is fact. I have taken new PM-V11 blades directly to a 13000 waterstone. They only need to be polished. You will not get them flatter than they come from the factory. 

 

I have quite a number of LN planes. They are good and the blades are good, but they not in the same class as LV blades. The LN blades need to be lapped from the outset, and 1000 is where one starts - as CS demonstrates.

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

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Derek, love most of what you write and have great respect. This leaves me puzzled. The LN blade I received just this week is far superior to my experiences with LV. Is it possible that not all tools or steel variants across the spectrum of either line are treated with perfect uniformity. Any process will include some variability in manufacturing and most users that are out there writing are not calling either tool set faulty. They are simply chronicling a personal preference, some as simple as how the tool handle fits the hand. Thoughts?

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Lapped Plane Blades  

 

Lapping the blade is the critical first step when preparing a blade for use. The reason for this may not be obvious until you understand that the sharpness of a cutting edge is determined by the intersection of two surfaces (the bevel and the opposing face), and that the smoother and flatter these two surfaces are, the keener the intersection. The lapping process can be an arduous task, especially when dealing with today's hard tool steels. This process, when done by hand, involves numerous steps and will require a good deal of your time to achieve an acceptable working surface.

To reduce the time and effort you spend on this activity, we now lap our Veritas® A2 and O1 plane blades* on the face (non-bevel side) to a flatness tolerance of ±0.0002" or better over the working surface, and with an average roughness surface finish of 5 microinches (0.000005") or better. Because you begin with a blade that has already been lapped flat, your efforts may now be focused on providing the final polish to the face and honing the micro-bevel – tasks that require significantly less time and effort than lapping the blade face.

lappedplaneblades_s1.jpg

On our regular and bevel-up plane blades, the working surface is the section of the face that extends from about 1/8" below the bottom of the screw slot to the cutting edge; on shoulder and bullnose plane blades, it is the widest section of the face from the shoulder to the cutting edge. Average roughness (Ra) measures the height variations in the surface over a given area and then provides an average roughness
value to represent the surface finish – the lower the value, the better the finish.

    *except Veritas scrub, scraping, router and flush planes, and all Veritas A2 toothed blades.  

 

The above now also applies to PM-V11 blades.

 

Link:  http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/TechInfo.aspx?p=57111

 

 

Regards from Perth

 

Derek

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Good to hear you're getting the results you were after RJ, hopefully you get plenty of shop time!

 

"In a well used kit of tools the backs pretty much end up mirroring the stones one uses." - A a vintage dude I can confirm this, it's lovely really, it's demonstrates love and more than likely things got made using them.

 

"Just use the cutters and hone when needed secure in the knowledge that all the rest of it is basically 100% inevitable" - And yes, hone, remove burr, use, repeat. 

 

I think I would assume (not having used them) both LN & LV send out stuff thats good from the get go. A spec sheet top trumps game at that level almost seems perverse. Although considering I think a "fine" India is scary sharp I should likely be ignored  :) 

 

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