Some advice with this garden gate please?

[Dewald Swanepoel]

Greetings folks,

We have this arch in our garden.


Everything in front of it is the lawn and beds where I don't mind my kids playing. Everything behind it is where the swimming pool and garden shed is, where I prefer them not to be playing. Seeing I became inspired and started thinking that I should put something like that in the arch and line the back of the flower beds with picket fence or something.
To give you a sense of scale, the span of the arch is about 1.8m (6ft) and I figured the gate could be, say 1.4m (4.5ft) tall. With such a long span I don't think a design like Terry's will work so I think I should go for two gates, saloon door style.
 
This is more or less what I have in mind:


Now mine won't be anything as impressive as TerryMcK's, not least because I'm quite simply not the sorcerer that he is but also as I have very limited tools. I have a sliding mitre saw, some handheld power tools (jigsaw, plunge router, drill) and some hand tools.

But before I start on this project I thought I'd turn to you guys first with some questions.

1. First of all, just looking at the general design; Does this look like something that could work? Does it not look like it could be too heavy or not sturdy enough?

2. Of course I'd love to assembly the whole thing with domino joints but that's not going to happen. Mortise and tenon joints seem like the reasonable approach but I'm a bit hesitant there. I'm not too worried about cutting the tenons. I might try doing it with the mitre saw or otherwise I'll just do it with a backsaw and chisels. The mortises I'm not so sure about as I don't have a drill press and I can see drilling the holes with a hand drill to be problematic. Will I get away with lap joints perhaps? Or maybe lap joints with dowels like so?

3. Here is something I'm never sure about. I'm not even sure if one way is better than the other. And I guess if I'm using lap joints it's a moot point. But let's assume for the moment that I'm using M&T joints. Which of the following two options do you think is the better way of assembling the outside frame?

OR

4. Then, I feel that there has to be some or other diagonal support as a purely rectangular construction would undoubtedly go wonky in time. But again, I'm unsure which option is better.

OR

My intuition tells me that the first option would be better as that would put compression stress on the joints where it attaches in the corners while the second option would put tension stress on the joints. Your thoughts?

5. I'm not even sure what kind of joints one would use to join the diagonal support to the frame. Any suggestions?

6. Finally, I still have to figure out what would be a good post to put on either side. Obviously it will have to be something that is very solid and sturdy so as to keep the two gates up and aligned nicely. The best option would probably be to build two pillars from brick and mortar but that seems a bit excessive. I'm wondering if two 125mm (5in) diameter poles planted deep enough into the ground might work. Or perhaps digging oversize holes in the ground and filling them with concrete as well? Any suggestions.

Sorry about all the questions and thanks in advance.

[RPCV_Woodworker]

The first option is best, with the top member overlapping the posts, as it provides vertical support to the crosspiece using the entire thickness.

 

I would totally go with lap joints and dowels, but a bridle joint would be better (and just as attractive). Mortise and tenon would be ideal, but i love the look of pegged through joints.

 

First option is best for the diagonal, because any downward pressure from sag would be intercepted, whereas the second option the frame would just sag off of the support, rather than into it.

 

For the gate posts, you'll need concrete and/or a deadman with a guy wire to keep them perfect.

 

I think it looks fantastic!

[Coop]

Deefstes, This is going to be interesting as I bet you'll receive various "correct" answers. I don't dare throw my 2 cents in as I have often wondered about your question #4. Looks like a great project. Good luck and keep pics coming.

As a side, what kind of tree is that to the right of the arbor in the pic?

[TerryMcK]

Glad that I have inspired you . As Ken says there are many "correct" answers.

• On question 1 it looks great and will be fine.
• On question 2 through wedged tenons are the most long lasting. Lapjoints, as well all the joints you mentioned, will work fine but are not as long lasting outside. Another joint you could consider which is really good is a corner bridle joint with a drawn tenon or drawboring. Essentially pinning the joint with a dowel into holes that are drilled out of line. When you drive the dowel into the mismatched holes they pull the joint together. Great for disassembling the joint in the future if you need to replace rotted parts. See here  (figure I) - The joint can be made easily using a saw and chisel.
• On question 3 stiles are normally run from ground to the top to prevent the gate from exhibiting twist. Look at all the doors in your house for an example. So on your picture under Q3 it's the lower one.
• On question 4 having the diagonal run from the bottom of the hinge stile to the top of the lock side is the preferred way. The forces of the gate (its weight in other words) are always acting upon the hinges. Have a look at 5 bar farm gates (gargle it) for a few pictures. So Q4 top picture.
• Question 5 - glue is the way to go. 
• Question 6 - Tanalised wood set in concrete - good for 25 years. Might be better square or rectangular section as you've got to fix the hinges to a straight face. Otherwise its loads of chiselling.

 

As always you can make anything the way you want to and don't have to adhere to any "rules". It's your design after all.

[nod]

This is going to look great. I can't wait to see your progress shots. I'm enjoying the questions and responses as well.

I'm having some much larger gates installed (will post pics soon), and thankfully didn't have to deal with too much of the above since we're using steel framing and posts. Your design is much more refined and should look really nice in place. best of luck. 

[wtnhighlander]

For sure, make the posts sturdier than you think they need to be. If you are building a fence, you might attatch it so that some of the load is transferred to to fence as well.

And be sure to choose hinges appropriate to the weight.

The one drawback to the saloon style gate is that it is difficult to lock solidly.

[Dewald Swanepoel]

Thanks for all the responses guys, much appreciated. And sorry for the delay. Damn these time zone differences.

 

The more I think about this one the more I feel that I should just suck it and make those mortises and tenons. Maybe even the drawn tenon or bridle joint as per Terry's suggestion. If it means lots of chiselling, then so be it.

 

Terry, I'm not sure I follow you on joining that diagonal piece. Are you suggesting that it's simply cut to sit snug in the corners of the frame and then you glue it together? So no tenon or lap or whatever form of interleaving of wood?

 

Then, might I also ask for recommendations as to the thickness of such a gate. Yours is like 70mm thick which seems like one mean gate. I'm not sure I have the guts to make it that thick (and heavy). I was thinking of 44mm. Can anyone think of a reason that would not work? The next standard size up from 44mm would indeed be 70mm.

 

As a side, what kind of tree is that to the right of the arbor in the pic?

It's a Henkel's Yellowwood (Podocarpus henkelii). Its cousin, the Broad-leaved Yellowwood (P. latifolius) is a highly sought after woodworking timber but these days it's near impossible to get a hold of.

[TerryMcK]

44mm would be fine as a minimum thickness for the stiles and crossrails. The perpendicular boards could be 12 to 15mm thick if you wanted to have them sitting flush to the outside face. This will give you a possible 25 to 32mm for the diagonal which is more than enough to provide strength due to triangulation.  Have a look at this as an example (I know the perps are nailed onto the face of the stiles/crossrails in this one) 

I suspect that this diagonal may be reinforced with biscuits (it might not be of course) and then glued with epoxy. We know that semi end grain to long grain isn't as strong as long grain to long grain - but it's a gate not fine furniture.

It may also have additional support from judicious use of woodscrews through a few of the perpendicular boards. Everything goes to providing the strength in a construction like this - just like timber framing a house or garage.

[Dewald Swanepoel]

Thanks. Yes, maybe that's the kind of approach I should follow. I was thinking of making the perpendiculars (mullions?) the same thickness as the stiles and cross rails and make the diagonal beam half the thickness or two thirds of that, joining it with the perpendiculars with half lap joints. So the diagonal beam will only be half or 2/3rd the thickness of the gate but sit flush with the back of the gate while the perpendiculars and the frame are all the same thickness.
 
Between your earlier answers and your last post, I've refined my design a bit. Here's an exploded view but now I might have to do it all over again.


I still think that would look better but your suggestion above certainly would be much easier.

[Beechwood Chip]

If you can pull off all those diagonal half lap joints you'll have a solid gate that you can really be proud of.  Make a jig for the router (Marc's video this week demonstrates how to make this sort of router jig).  Test and refine the jig on scrap, first.  I'd cut the slats long, do the diagonal half laps with the jig, dry fit the diagonal and all the slats, and then cut the tops and bottoms of the slats.  I think that would be easier than trying to perfectly position all the diagonal half laps.

[Dewald Swanepoel]

Guys, thanks for all the advice so far but I'm still not clear on exactly how I'm going to do these corner joins to I'm hoping you can humour me a little more.
 
First of all, I'm still debating on whether I should use mortise and tenon joins for the mullions and whether I should go with dowels but I'll make up my mind on that later. I'm daunted by M&T's as I don't really have the proper tools for that. I also think I should change my design a bit just to make the joins between the mullions and the curved upper rail easier. This is what I'll probably go with then:

 
But my biggest concern at the moment is what to do with the diagonal support member where it meets the corners of the frame. This will be a heavy gate. We're talking some 28kg (60lbs) for each half (I'm planning on using Rhodesian Teak). So I think I'll face my M&T fear at least for the four corner joins and put in proper through mortise and tenons - or even wedged mortise and tenons a la Terry's. I just have a gut feel that the quality of those four joins will make or break the project.
 
But to have the diagonal beam just butt up into the corners just doesn't seem right to me. It'll be a glue join of end grain to long grain and it just doesn't seem right. I feel there has to be some form of wood interleaving. The best idea I can come up with is to cut a diagonal lap joint into the frame, like so (viewed from the back):

 
But I'm worried that this lap join will compromise the mortise and tenon in the corner. Of course I will assemble and glue together the frame first and then use a plunge router to cut the recessed lap joint but if you explode the three pieces at this corner, this is what it looks like:

 

So, as you can see, there's a significant amount of material around that mortise and tenon that will be removed. Do you think that is sensible or could someone suggest a better approach please?

[Coop]

Wow, That's a hellua joint. Almost need a 3D printer to build. Good luck

[Dewald Swanepoel]

Wow, That's a hellua joint. Almost need a 3D printer to build. Good luck

Like I said though, I won't be cutting that joint. I'll make an ordinary M&T joint in the corner and glue it up. After that has cured I will route the recess for the lap joint. So I think the process is relatively simple but I'm just showing this exploded view to illustrate what will remain of the M&T joint after the lap had been removed.

[Shane Jimerfield]

Even at 60 lbs they are not that heavy for the strength you'll getting from those joints and that wood. all those glued lap joints on the diagonal piece will hold that thing in there for ever - if not you can always add some bolts in 20 years. I would not cut into the mortise and tenon joints just to recess the diagonal in the corner. you can always move it away from the corner so it recesses into the lower rail just a bit for good measure. i think gate builders recessed the diagonal into the lower rail for extra support as they did not want to do what you are proposing. See image

 

[Beechwood Chip]

Shane makes a good point.  With all those lap joints on the stiles, the stiles are essentially locked together.  That in turn will keep the top and bottom rails square, which will keep the whole thing square.

 

If you want, you could trim the diagonal even with the first and last stile.  I think that would be a cool, unique look.

[Dewald Swanepoel]

I would not cut into the mortise and tenon joints just to recess the diagonal in the corner. you can always move it away from the corner so it recesses into the lower rail just a bit for good measure. i think gate builders recessed the diagonal into the lower rail for extra support as they did not want to do what you are proposing. See image

 

But of course! Why didn't I think of that? There's no reason why the diagonal beam should go straight into the corner. I think that's exactly what I'll do. Although I think I'll recess it into the two stiles rather than into the bottom and top rails just because the real estate there is getting a bit crowded what with all those mullions and their mortise and tenon joints.

 

Have some thanks!

 

I think I'm ready to take on this project now. All that remains is to get the wood and find the time - which will probably not happen before December. But it's an exciting project to look forward to for my December entertainment