duckkisser Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I recently got into a argument with someone about if wood turning can be considered wood carving. It got a little heated till I pointed out that we are arguing about something that does not matter. After which we started to break it down and debate it like adults. Seriously I was thinking one of us would start saying things like my dadie is better then your dadie or the ever popular oh ya your a dodo head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I think they feature a significant difference in the rate of progress. If holding the work steady is the only parameter, then planing or even grinding with an ArborTec blade could factor in. If power is the hang up then even Dremel disqualifies. You picked a good one Dan. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 So, if you turn an awesome bowl and then carve a killer design feature into the bowl, what did you do? Did you turn a bowl or carve a bowl? Personally, I think they are verry different but, as you pointed out, that's just a differing opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phinds Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I've always considered them completely diffferent thing because thet use different tools, different motions, etc. Even the types of wood that are best are different for each ... turning works best with harder woods (although it can be readily done on either hard or soft woods) and carving with softer woods like basswood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I see what you are getting at, but turning implies that something is ... turning. Ignoring off center turning, you end up with something that is symmetrical around an axis. So then I guess using a router with a circle jig is turning. You can't win trying to draw lines between different parts of woodworking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 You admit they are different methods, which undermines your argument they are the same. You could call them both wood shaping but carving and turning are called different things because they are different things. Each require a different tool set, focus on different species of wood, and build different skill sets. - sent via Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I've always considered them completely diffferent thing because thet use different tools, different motions, etc. Even the types of wood that are best are different for each ... turning works best with harder woods (although it can be readily done on either hard or soft woods) and carving with softer woods like basswood. Problem with this logic is you can turn any wood I have made bobbers and lures out of balsa wood on my lathe but I have also carved wood like cherry and wallnut. (Not the hardest wood but still much harder then balsa and basswood)I the only thing that wood hardness comes into play is effects the finishing a harder wood will keep a finish better since it won't dent or scratch as easily. It also cuts smoother. soft wood tend to catch and rip more but with the right technique and tool sharpness you won't have as much of a problem. Frankly the traditional tools aren't that different only the angle/ sharpness of the edge is different and that's mostly to keep a fine edge from breaking and chiping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I see what you are getting at, but turning implies that something is ... turning. Ignoring off center turning, you end up with something that is symmetrical around an axis. So then I guess using a router with a circle jig is turning. You can't win trying to draw lines between different parts of woodworking. I agree this guy wanted to define everything for instance hand tool and power tool I'm tired of that argument. If you make a cabinet and carve a lizard on the door is it now a carving or a piece of furniture. I feel like turning and carving are the same its just a different mindset and technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 You admit they are different methods, which undermines your argument they are the same. You could call them both wood shaping but carving and turning are called different things because they are different things. Each require a different tool set, focus on different species of wood, and build different skill sets. - sent via Tapatalk I have turned both hard and soft woods and carved both hard and soft woods Traditional tools both have gouges, chisles and skews and shoot I even use a saw on my lathe to part it off and shape different parts of the wood. I use a flap sander on both turning and carvings regularly. Only difference is the degree of sharpening. Only difference is the skills involved and that's only because one way involves a moving block of wood. As for method making them different look at the power and hand tool debate. If you use a powered jointer/planer to flatten your wood or you use a hand plane its two different methods, two different skill sets with the same result. Or with joinery if I cut a set of dovetails on a table or if I use pocket screws I'm still making furniture both joints will hold the table together it's just different methods different skill with the same result. I can turn a bow,plate, mug spoon scoop, ect... Or I can carve the same items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 It's still 2 different techniques to achive similar results. Dye, stain and paint are all different finishing techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rapid Roger Posted October 19, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Why didn't you just ask the age old question "Is woodworking (in general) a 'SKILL' or an 'ART' ? I think this kind of debate is a waste of time and effort. In the long run, IT DOESN'T MATTER it is just an individual opinion. Rog 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phinds Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I think this kind of debate is a waste of time and effort. In the long run, IT DOESN'T MATTER it is just an individual opinion. +1 on that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Why didn't you just ask the age old question "Is woodworking (in general) a 'SKILL' or an 'ART' ? I think this kind of debate is a waste of time and effort. In the long run, IT DOESN'T MATTER it is just an individual opinion. Rog Exploring the difference and similarities between woodworking disciplines is a waste of time? Maybe we should talk more about which tablesaw to buy. Actually I find this an interesting discussion, at least a lot more interesting than most well worn topics. But I am capable of debate and disagreement without becoming emotionally charged. edit; typo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Why didn't you just ask the age old question "Is woodworking (in general) a 'SKILL' or an 'ART' ? I think this kind of debate is a waste of time and effort. In the long run, IT DOESN'T MATTER it is just an individual opinion. Rog Isent just about everything a waste of time heck even time is a waste since it is a made up concept to box in our lives and regulate our actions.......shoot if we realy want to get deep time is basicly a fluid that most theories speculate that time changes with the effect of gravity and speed so it's not even stable. Debates like this help keep our minds sharp and affect how we reason thats why we have debates rather then arguments. granted this debate will like many others leads to nothing except of moment of rational insight. And frankly that growth is reason enough or me. I honestly feel that the difference between carving and turning from any other wood working is the fact that turning/carving both involve generally taking a solid block and removing wood to create a object but anyother kind wood working that I can think of involves several pieces and joining them together to create a object. An example is I can make a table with several boards but if I took a large solid block/board and carve a table out then it becomes a carving/turning. Both turning and carving require you to take a solid form and remove and shape the wood. Now arguably I and others can come up with examples of when this is not true like saying we remove wood from a board every time we cut it but it keeps its fundamental form. But a carving will change every time you remove part of the wood. One moment it's a happy face and witht the removal of some wood it's now a angry face but a table will have the same basic shape and desighn no mater how much wood you remove. Since both turning and carving create the same object by the same method of removing wood from a whole why isent it considered the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I have turned both hard and soft woods and carved both hard and soft woods Traditional tools both have gouges, chisles and skews and shoot I even use a saw on my lathe to part it off and shape different parts of the wood. I use a flap sander on both turning and carvings regularly. Only difference is the degree of sharpening. Only difference is the skills involved and that's only because one way involves a moving block of wood. As for method making them different look at the power and hand tool debate. If you use a powered jointer/planer to flatten your wood or you use a hand plane its two different methods, two different skill sets with the same result. Or with joinery if I cut a set of dovetails on a table or if I use pocket screws I'm still making furniture both joints will hold the table together it's just different methods different skill with the same result. I can turn a bow,plate, mug spoon scoop, ect... Or I can carve the same items To get back on topic... Obviously we disagree and when done, will probably still disagree. Mortising requires chisels and is even closer to carving, but you wouldn't go around claiming them to be the same, unless you want a lot of dirty looks from carvers. But most important is that both require different skill sets. Being one doesn't make you the other. That said, I understand your viewpoint and perhaps it isn't that we disagree completely but just in degree. But I believe that definitions serve a purpose, to make communication clearer, and our woodworking culture accepts them as different disciplines. Consider grooves and dadoes, they are the same thing except one is parallel to the grain while the other is perpendicular but we name them differently to conserve language. Then if you think about it, they typically have different purposes so they are alike but different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Perhaps 'carving' is too general in scope. I would call an artistic form that is made by removing material from a larger piece 'sculpting'. I also thing that turning qualifies as sculpting, at least as much as 'carving' with grinders, rasps, and sandpaper does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I will buy that turning and carving both fall under the category of sculpting. Sculpting is an art form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Bailey Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 semantic arguments are fun, ... ... for lawyers. just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 If jumping into topics that don't interest you to mock the participants is normal fair around here then I've been missing out on a lot of fun because I was very good at that back in Jr high. - sent via Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 ok enough back and forth conversation here is the story that lead up to this discussion. few days ago i posted a box that i had made on a sculpture forum that mostly does work in stone carving and carved jewelry. thats not the rules its just the medium that alot of the members use. The guy sent me a message saying that it would be best if i removed my box that i had made with a inlayed turtle in the lid. he stated that this was not a turning forum but a carving forum. i asked what is the difference both involve taking a larger block and removing shavings and pieces to create a form.i asked him why the web site creator had a problem with my box which he stated that he was not affiliated with the forum management he was just a member with a interest in preserving the integrity of the site. so we had a back and forth conversation which involved me basically stating much of what i stated here that.... 1. carving/turning fall under sculpture category since it is a case of removal of wood to create a new form ex turning or carving a bowl can be done with the wood spinning and placing a gouge to the wood or the wood stable and i moving around the wood using a gouge to remove part of the wood. 2. stated that carving uses different tools then turning at which point i showed him carvings that were made with just a bandsaw/chainsaw/scroll saw/spoons/straws/pvc pipe and blowtorch so that traditional tools don't define carving its the end results that matter. at which point he pointed out wood turning is only done on a lathe so i showed him a video that did wood turning with a drill press/ table saw/router table/scroll saw so again the tools don't define wood turning it the end results that matter 3 finaly he stated wood carving usually involved use of softer woods to create a sculpture at which point i found a sculpture that was made from iron wood that the carver didn't really carve but more of ground to a shape because his tools could not stay sharp enough to cut for any length of time. then i sent a video of a wood turner making fishing lures from balsa wood as far as i know the softest wood out there. the guy stopped responding after my many rebuttals to his logic. haven't heard anything more from him or from the forum mentors so i eather won him over or he has chosen to pretend like this didn't happen. eather way i don't care since the guy does not matter to me but it made me curious what the other members on this forum thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Bailey Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 If jumping into topics that don't interest you to mock the participants is normal fair around here then I've been missing out on a lot of fun because I was very good at that back in Jr high. - sent via Tapatalk i did not mean to mock anyone but you are right, sorry. i find it all beautiful whether one calls it turning or carving, whether the artist used a handtool or a power tool or used a lathe or held the wood in a vise. and my comment was more self mockery (as I'm a lawyer) than anything else, but ... i apologize 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I took it in the wrong spirit,no harm done. Duckkisser, the longer version gives more insight to your line of thinking. - sent via Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckkisser Posted October 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I took it in the wrong spirit,no harm done. Duckkisser, the longer version gives more insight to your line of thinking. - sent via Tapatalk Didn't want to give too much from the start there would have been less discussion. This way there was some discusion and people placing their point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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