Building a Lumber Buying Video Series, Call for Input

[RenaissanceWW]

Need some lumber stories.  Bare your shame, voice your anger, and share your triumphs.  I'm trying to assemble a baseline of common confusions, misunderstandings, frustrations, etc centered around a trip to the lumber yard or buying lumber in general.  You can expect a thorough video series that will hopefully address them all.  I'm still not sure whether The Renaissance Woodworker will host it or J. Gibson McIlvain Company but it will be comprehensive and ideally eliminate some of the fear and frustration that comes with buying wood.  I'll even throw in some plywood stuff.  Ready?  Go!

[RenaissanceWW]

Good stuff Mike, thank you.  I can't say that I can get too heavy into pricing because it IS so variable, but I can explain the reasons for the variability which mostly has to do with where you are buying in the supply chain and how many folks upstream have taken a slice of the pie.  As with any product price is inversely related to the quantity you buy.  You also have to consider the overhead at each level of the supply chain.  Kiln drying costs money and time, Every time that stack or board is moved someone is on the clock adding to the overhead.  Now start adding in transportation costs and you can imagine why the price varies so much.  The key is to focus on some standards.  Compare apples to apples.  If you see a huge price difference something isn't equal like seasoning, grade, etc.  You do truly get what you pay for and lumber industry margins are pretty tight.

[Eric.]

The apples-to-apples aspect is a biggun'.  I hang out weekends at my local yard "for the discount" and work the register.  I'm pretty sure not a day goes by up there that at least one customer comes in and complains that "I can get this at such and such sawmill for x-dollars!"  With my limited knowledge of the lumber industry, I struggle to justify the disparate pricing, even though I know there's an enormous difference in quality.  I ask them questions like,"Is it kiln dried?" which usually results in a shrug of the shoulders, and, "What grade is it?"  This one usually invokes the blank stare.  I wish I had more ammo to fire at these people, so an in-depth apples-to-apples explanation would be helpful to me personally so I can pass it on to whiny customers.

[pghmyn]

I

 

 

Well you can just be the guy who says "no wood for you" and sends him to the sawmill. 

 

I buy as much as I can direct from a local mill.   Grading is probably more consistent at the retail level... but lumber grading is really for the benefit of the cabinet, trim and flooring industries.  For hobby guys it is less important and probably drives the cost up based on factors we do not care about.  I'd rather have one wide board with some sap and defects than two narrow clear boards.   Retail all walnut is steamed (which looks like boiled puke compared to unsteamed walnut), a local mill it will be unsteamed and have more color variation.   I can get more species from a mill and, since it is truly rough sawn I usually ended up with thicker boards.  Retail, all 4/4 lumber is surfaced to a little over 3/4", so by the time I am done with it it ends up under 3/4".   I can usually yield 1" out of sawmill 4/4.  The only reason I buy retail is for convenience. 

All the reasons I love where I buy my lumber from.

 

Almost all their domestics are 1.125" in thickness, or really close to it. I can typically yield 7/8" to 1" on a typical milling process.

[Eric.]

I

 

 

Well you can just be the guy who says "no wood for you" and sends him to the sawmill. 

 

I buy as much as I can direct from a local mill.   Grading is probably more consistent at the retail level... but lumber grading is really for the benefit of the cabinet, trim and flooring industries.  For hobby guys it is less important and probably drives the cost up based on factors we do not care about.  I'd rather have one wide board with some sap and defects than two narrow clear boards.   Retail all walnut is steamed (which looks like boiled puke compared to unsteamed walnut), a local mill it will be unsteamed and have more color variation.   I can get more species from a mill and, since it is truly rough sawn I usually ended up with thicker boards.  Retail, all 4/4 lumber is surfaced to a little over 3/4", so by the time I am done with it it ends up under 3/4".   I can usually yield 1" out of sawmill 4/4.  The only reason I buy retail is for convenience. 

 

Well I don't know what country you live in, but around here, the local mills don't have any bubinga or padauk or mahogany.  While it's true that most of the domestic 4/4 we have at my yard is surfaced to 13/16", we also have some 15/16" in some species and rough in others.  He doesn't stock rough in as many species as I wish he did, simply because it doesn't really sell that well...a lot of the hobbyists don't have a jointer and planer, and the contractors don't want to deal with the milling.  The S3S sells ten times faster than the rough.  Most of the exotics he has are skip planed to a fat 4/4...a full inch.

 

I've dug around at a few of the mills.  There's some good stuff to be found, but I find a lot of it to be full of defects, warped, twisted, bowed...and who knows if it was properly dried.  I don't mind paying extra for the convenience of walking right up to a pile of clean, straight sticks.  Of course I get bargain prices that most people don't get, so my perspective is somewhat skewed.

[Scott Bailey]

I am pretty new to this so haven't bought very much wood, by comparison.  when i have gone to the hardwood dealer I usually buy a small amount of wood because i'm basically a weekend hobbyist and I don't have any real need to stock up on lots of wood (not to mention I don't have a ton of room to store it).  Last time I bought wood I got 4bf of hard maple and 2bf of red oak that i'm using for a couple small projects, just to give an idea of how little i'm buying. 

 

I go to crosscut hardwoods and the guys who work there are really great but what always seems to get me is how to tell the difference between a good board and one that's going to cause me problems.  last time I went I shuffled through the 4/4 red oak for half an hour before I came upon what looked like the best piece in the approximate size I was looking for.  got it home and crosscut it to length for a project i'm working on and the piece split practically down the middle. fortunately i was able to cut around the split and got what I needed, but still.  could I have seen that at the store?  maybe, but beyond looking for obvious defects such as large splits or big knots, I really don't know how to tell the good pieces from the not-so good.

 

so far that's given me the biggest difficulty. 

[Vyrolan]

This thread just makes me wish I had a truck despite otherwise having absolutely zero desire to have a truck.   Fancy lumber yards and "local sawmills" or even "sawmill 2 hours away" is all meaningless if you have no way to transport a decent chunk of stuff.   I wouldn't mind making a many hour roundtrip if I could bring back all the rough lumber for a couple of projects all at once.   Transportation vs shipping/delivery is probably a topic worth including in such a series...especially for sheet goods which pose even greater challenges.

[G S Haydon]

This might be because I'm foreign but would a newbie understand what 4/4 is? I get told and then I forget. If we order wood it's referred to as how many, it's length, it's width, it's thickness. 3 x 4.200mtr x 225mm x 50mm. 

I guess also people would ask how much should they allow for preparing from sawn? Jagon of any kind, say FAS to me is First & Second, not sure how you guys do it.

[dwacker]

This might be because I'm foreign but would a newbie understand what 4/4 is? I get told and then I forget. If we order wood it's referred to as how many, it's length, it's width, it's thickness. 3 x 4.200mtr x 225mm x 50mm. 

I guess also people would ask how much should they allow for preparing from sawn? Jagon of any kind, say FAS to me is First & Second, not sure how you guys do it.

 4/4 is 4x.25" We do make it confusing especially when you throw is the s2s s3s. Its disturbing to many folks you go down and buy 4/4 and go home with 13/16 and you can't get 3/4 finish lumber.

[krtwood]

At my nearest yard they call it FAS, at least on the website, but there is a lot that is under 6" wide.  I don't personally really have a problem with it, especially having a 6" jointer, and yet it still feels like a bit of a ripoff. 

 

Oh and Shannon, what the heck is going on with walnut pricing this year?!?  Around here 4/4 has gone from under $8/BF to $10/BF.  My local guy has trouble getting it at all.  He says he could get some 12"+ wide boards but he'd have to charge $13/BF for them. 

[davewyo]

Here are some really basic things:

 

How to deal with being the little guy.

I have 3 lumber dealers nearby. One has 8-10 hardwoods in stock. The other two don't have anything on hand but "can order whatever you want." Admittedly their focus is on construction lumber not the hobby clientele. I will touch on the "ordering whatever you want" aspect in another point, but for now suffice it to say that you don't feel like a top priority when buying a sheet of ply or 10 BF of lumber when the guy at the counter next to you is buying a truckload of pine. With the quantity ($) I'm buying I'm basically a nuisance.

 

How to overcome the hesitance to ask questions in the bustling retail environment.

There is some mahogany on the rack. I wouldn't mind knowing where it came from, but it is a difficult question when everyone is super-busy selling construction lumber.

We have some walnut that may or may not be steamed. To find the guy who would know may or may not be possible, but surely you would feel like you're inconveniencing whoever you sent on such a quest.

 

How to deal with random lengths and random widths when ordering.

Sometimes you go in to order lumber with actual board sizes in mind but with RL + RW it is incredibly difficult to figure out what is going to arrive.

 

How to return or reject what you have ordered.

Like I said, the lumber yards here "can get anything you want."

I found it amazingly difficult to not over-order some 8/4 stock because I needed certain lengths and they couldn't tell me exactly what I would get.

It's hard to tell if you're going to get two bedposts from the length of the stock unless they can tell you what is coming.

In the end both of the boards were plenty long enough. They were also wide enough but the edge of one looked like a truck ran into it and and the 7" wide board had about 4" of wood in it.

I do believe I paid for that highly irregular edge.

When I ordered it I was quoted $2.65/ BF for knotty alder. I ended up paying almost 3 times that, but the other (longer) board was 10" wide and clear as can be.

How would you go about rejecting a board or two when you special ordered it?

 

Dave

[DrewG]

Okay, I have one from the newbie's fear/uncertainty/doubt column...

There is a really nice hardwood place nearby that carries all sorts of exotics. Being a starting weekend hobbyist, I usually don't need to purchase a lot of stock. Sometimes, I don't even have an idea for my next project, but want have some material on hand.

I generally tend to comb thought the cutoffs for nice-sized affordable pieces; but often these are already milled to 4/4 or smaller. If I need 8/4 or bigger, I need to go through full-size pieces; and, honestly, I feel bad asking for just 4 bd ft or so from a 12’ piece of stock.

So, my question is, do hardwood/lumber dealers care if I'm asking them to cut smaller pieces from large stock? I mean, the cutoffs I usually buy came from larger pieces; but, I usually think they just ends of a larger order.

So, is this an major imposition; or, is "a sale a sale", and I'm just small fish in a big pond?

[DrewG]

Sorry, Dave. I guess I should have called you. We could have collaborated. ;-)

[davewyo]

Sorry, Dave. I guess I should have called you. We could have collaborated. ;-)

 

No worries...you said it more succinctly.

 

All kidding aside...It's good to know when you're not the only one in the boat!

Dave

[wtnhighlander]

Shannon, I have to concur with the previous questions regarding small purchases in a retail environment. Also, an issue local to me is the dearth of "local" sawmills that cater to individuals. True, there seems to be plenty of sawmills tucked away in every nook and cranny, but they tend to do only the sawing, and sell directly to the huge consumers like Armstrong Flooring ( they have a factory here). In 2 years of searching, I have located only one full service mill inside a 2 hour driving radius, which offers sales to individuals. And they aren't particularly easy to contact.

How does one go about making initial contact with the so-called "mom & pop" mills?

[JohnDi]

Shannon, as a newbie, it would be helpful if you included an explanation of most of the terms used for hardwoods when they're sold.

S2S,S4S, skip planed etc.

Can be very intimidating when looking at boards and you don't understand the differences in pricing because of the way the board is surfaced.

[TerryMcK]

This might be because I'm foreign but would a newbie understand what 4/4 is? I get told and then I forget. If we order wood it's referred to as how many, it's length, it's width, it's thickness. 3 x 4.200mtr x 225mm x 50mm. 

I guess also people would ask how much should they allow for preparing from sawn? Jagon of any kind, say FAS to me is First & Second, not sure how you guys do it.

That's because you were taught in metric Graham . Very few timber dealers in the UK  now use the quarter system (some I've spoken to still know about it) and everything in general is quoted in mm and metre lengths.

I did buy some US white oak recently from my local wood yard (about a mile away) and the dealer I spoke to actually quoted the dimensions in inches (not quarters), feet lengths and the invoice was worked out in cubic feet (not board feet). 

Also on the same invoice was some timber sourced from some other place in the world and that was listed in mm and metres but the price worked out in cubic metres   

 

I just wish everybody worldwide would stick to one measuring system when buying/selling timber. I wouldn't care if it is quarters, board feet, metres millimetres or truck loads just stick to one!

[pghmyn]

That's because you were taught in metric Graham . Very few timber dealers in the UK now use the quarter system (some I've spoken to still know about it) and everything in general is quoted in mm and metre lengths.

I did buy some US white oak recently from my local wood yard (about a mile away) and the dealer I spoke to actually quoted the dimensions in inches (not quarters), feet lengths and the invoice was worked out in cubic feet (not board feet).

Also on the same invoice was some timber sourced from some other place in the world and that was listed in mm and metres but the price worked out in cubic metres

I just wish everybody worldwide would stick to one measuring system when buying/selling timber. I wouldn't care if it is quarters, board feet, metres millimetres or truck loads just stick to one!

I wouldn't mind everything over here going metric. But the reality is it just won't happen. I hate having to remember countless unit conversions for all my classes because of the two different systems.

[JoshC1501]

I tried to think back to when I first started, and I can't think of much that hasn't already been covered here.

 

This is a pretty comprehensive list.   

 

The one thing that is a little more advanced, but very important is actual board selection.  How to select good boards for your project.  Staring at big pile of lumber can be intimidating.  Including the planning process to pick the right width's so you minimize waste.  I learned these lessons the hard way.  

[pghmyn]

I tried to think back to when I first started, and I can't think of much that hasn't already been covered here.

 

This is a pretty comprehensive list.   

 

The one thing that is a little more advanced, but very important is actual board selection.  How to select good boards for your project.  Staring at big pile of lumber can be intimidating.  Including the planning process to pick the right width's so you minimize waste.  I learned these lessons the hard way.  

I like this idea. Emphasize the importance of going in with a plan. Bring yourself a cut list, a tape measure, and some scrap paper. Make notes and quick sketches of the proposed cut plan for each board. Not the quickest method, but I think the majority of us here don't mind spending a little more time at the lumber store just for the ambiance  

[Brendon_t]

If you are doing a bottom up video, pricing should definitely be included. I remember my first venture to the yard ended up costing me double since I didn't write grasp that 8/4 lumber is twice the price because of the thickness. .

[Scott Bailey]

Okay, I have one from the newbie's fear/uncertainty/doubt column...

There is a really nice hardwood place nearby that carries all sorts of exotics. Being a starting weekend hobbyist, I usually don't need to purchase a lot of stock. Sometimes, I don't even have an idea for my next project, but want have some material on hand.

I generally tend to comb thought the cutoffs for nice-sized affordable pieces; but often these are already milled to 4/4 or smaller. If I need 8/4 or bigger, I need to go through full-size pieces; and, honestly, I feel bad asking for just 4 bd ft or so from a 12’ piece of stock.

So, my question is, do hardwood/lumber dealers care if I'm asking them to cut smaller pieces from large stock? I mean, the cutoffs I usually buy came from larger pieces; but, I usually think they just ends of a larger order.

So, is this an major imposition; or, is "a sale a sale", and I'm just small fish in a big pond?

this was a big question for me as well and then one day I just asked the guys at the place I go, and they said they will cut off smaller pieces for me as long as they are left with 6 feet in length.  I do not know if this is standard, but if I only need a small amount, and find an 8 foot board, they'll cut off and sell me the 2 foot long section.  I'm not sure if this is standard practice but it's worth asking.

[pghmyn]

If you are doing a bottom up video, pricing should definitely be included. I remember my first venture to the yard ended up costing me double since I didn't write grasp that 8/4 lumber is twice the price because of the thickness. .

Another good point. Stress the pricing lingo. Board foot versus linear foot.

[Eric.]

this was a big question for me as well and then one day I just asked the guys at the place I go, and they said they will cut off smaller pieces for me as long as they are left with 6 feet in length.  I do not know if this is standard, but if I only need a small amount, and find an 8 foot board, they'll cut off and sell me the 2 foot long section.  I'm not sure if this is standard practice but it's worth asking.

 

I think it varies from yard to yard.  The owner of mine doesn't like to cut boards because that's how he ends up with a bunch of shorts laying around that people expect to get for a discounted price, therefore costing him money.  The unwritten rule is generally: for cheaper domestics, just buy the damn board...it's not gonna cost you that much.  For more expensive exotics or giant boards, he'll cut it for you if he likes you and you're a regular customer, but you have to buy at least four linear feet and leave him with at least four linear feet.  There are exceptions...he has a piece of 8/4 zebrawood about 24" wide and 12' long...that thing ain't gettin' cut.  And many other similar examples.

 

I understand that woodworkers are frugal and exotics are expensive...but c'mon, whatever is left over from your project can and will be used later.  That's how you grow a lumber stash!

[Scott Bailey]

I think it varies from yard to yard.  The owner of mine doesn't like to cut boards because that's how he ends up with a bunch of shorts laying around that people expect to get for a discounted price, therefore costing him money.  The unwritten rule is generally: for cheaper domestics, just buy the damn board...it's not gonna cost you that much.  For more expensive exotics or giant boards, he'll cut it for you if he likes you and you're a regular customer, but you have to buy at least four linear feet and leave him with at least four linear feet.  There are exceptions...he has a piece of 8/4 zebrawood about 24" wide and 12' long...that thing ain't gettin' cut.  And many other similar examples.

 

I understand that woodworkers are frugal and exotics are expensive...but c'mon, whatever is left over from your project can and will be used later.  That's how you grow a lumber stash!

I figured that it really depended on the place, and to be fair I haven't bought any small chunks that way, they just offered to do that for certain species. I they also have an 'offcut pile' with bits and pieces that are too small to stack with their regular lumber that I sometimes fish through.  I usually buy the whole board and just ask them to make cuts that will allow the pieces to fit in my car.  I guess the only real lesson here is that it never hurts to ask.