Tom Cancelleri Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 I've never really gone too far into the sanding and finishing aspects of larger projects as the majority of my work was done on the lathe. I've gotten into building larger things and doing some furniture and tackling guitar building. I think it's time for a better ROS or suite of sanding tools. Hand sanding get rather time consuming. I'm sure this is beating a dead horse at this point, but I was looking at upgrading. I currently have a Dewalt ROS and a 1/2 sheet Makita sander that I've had forever. I also have a drum sander but that's not a finishing tool so I will leave that out of discussion. I was looking at the following: Festool Rotex 125 Festool ETS 125 Festool RTS 400 Mirka Ceros 5 I know a lot of people say get a Rotex 90, Rotex 150 and an ETS125. However I'm not about to drop $1500 on 3 sanders. The Rotex 90 has it's advantages and the size is nice for doing smaller work, face frames and the like but probably isn't versatile enough to be the main ROS. I figure 5" would be sufficient for 90% of what I'm going to be doing, and if I go the Festool route I'd probably wind up getting a Rotex 125 and RTS400. I'm looking at mainly for finishing acoustic guitar finishes, furniture, and cabinets. However if I go with the Mirka Ceros 5, will it be enough to do what I would need or am I looking at getting another sander to accompany the Ceros? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 I don't like the Mirka had some bad luck. I would only by Festoon if dust was a real issue. The PC low profiles work well and the dust collection is fine for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 ==>^^^ 6" gets more use in most shops. You could do a poll, but think it would be 80%+ 6" as a go-to. To address your choices: Festool Rotex 125 - no. Festool ETS 125 - ok, but nothing special -- get a PC low profile sand save $150. Festool RTS 400 - Thought you wanted RoS? Good for DIY. Mirka Ceros 5 - Good sander, the 6/5mm is more useful. I'll flush-out your list a bit: RO150 - hell no. RO90 - good sander, quite useful for DIY. ETS 150/5 - very good all-around sander. CEROS is better, but $200 more. ETS 150/3 - excellent finish sander. CEROS 2.5mm is much better, but $200 more. DTS 400 - good DIY sander, but not great bang/buck. DX 93 - OK detail sander, Fein is better for same price. RS 2 - excellent veneer panel sander. CEROS 150/5 - excellent all around sander CEROS 150/3 - excellent finish sander CEROS 150/8 - excellent course sander CEROS 125/5 - my go-to 5" sander, but rairly gets used. To Don's point, the CEROS line had some issues... There was a general recall last year... At this point, I've got five or six of the things and haven't had a problem. They are my go-to RoS. Also to Don's point, the PC LowProfile's are the best bang/buck I've seen in a long time. I've got two. They were discontinued a while ago, but if you can find one used, snap it up. Note: I've got at least one of every sander mentioned above... The RO120 and RO150 were returned as they were useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Also to Don's point, the PC LowProfile's are the best bang/buck I've seen in a long time. I've got two. They were discontinued a while ago, but if you can find one used, snap it up. Note: I've got at least one of every sander mentioned above... The RO120 and RO150 were returned as they were useless. Well that sucks, did not know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 There's still inventory 'in the pipeline', but stocking-out all over... I looked into this as a present for my Brother-in-Law, and found one at my local plywood store -- after searching Amazon, HD, etc...If you want more, I'd start with the local small hardware guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Trip, Thanks for the breakdown, I checked out the RO125/150 at woodcraft and felt it was really off balance and awkward. I found some PC Low Profiles online for about 120 shipped, I'm guessing that's a fair/good price. I can't say I'm really big into the pricing of festool stuff, I can't see things like a dust collector hose costing nearly 200 bucks, and new pads costing 60 bucks a piece unless of course it came with the magical sander fairy to do all your finish work. I do like the idea of the Ceros and the palm activated switch, seems more ergonomic as well. Would you say the Ceros 150/5 would be sufficient for finish sanding as well, or would a PC Low Profile for mid sanding and Ceros 150/3 for finish be a better idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 ==>felt it was really off balance and awkward Bingo -- got it in one... They're OK at a lot of things, but not really excellent at any one task. I drink as much Green Kool-Aid as the next guy, so I purchased them at launch. There's not much downside because of the 30-day return. I do feel sorry for the guys who drank just a bit too much Green-Aid and kept theirs... It's also part of the problem with the talking heads -- get paid a few bucks to lend their name to a Green product that's over-priced and largerly useless... ==>PC Low Profiles online for about 120 shipped That's the kit price... Sans-kit is about $85. ==>new pads costing 60 bucks That's one advantage of FT -- you can actually get other pads -- hard, mid, soft, extra-soft, etc. While others list pads, many times they are vaperware. ==>palm activated switch, seems more ergonomic as well SOP in the pneumatic sander world. Yes, it's more ergonomic. ==>Ceros 150/5 would be sufficient for finish sanding There are entire threads on this question... A lot depends on your definition of 'finish' sanding... ==>PC Low Profile for mid sanding and Ceros 150/3 for finish be a better idea? The FT 150/3 is a great finish sander --- no matter how you define it. The Ceros 150/5 does outperform the PC-LP, but it's about $350 more cost. The PC-LP for mid-sanding and FT 150/3 for finish would be a great combo. You could get better performance with all FT, all Mirka or Mirka+FT, but these combos would cost $100 and $500 incremental... I love the FT 150/3 and think the PC-LP is great bang/buck, so that's my 'recomended' combo. The best 'performing combo' -- Mirka 150/5 + Mirka 150/2.5 - I'd get one kit and one bare tool -- so about $400 incremental... BTW: Mirka's changed their pricing strategy. If you go all-CEROS, then only the first sander is $500 -- the rest are about $175 each... Of course, I got my first four prior to the price change... Oh well, sh*t happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 ==>felt it was really off balance and awkward Bingo -- got it in one... They're OK at a lot of things, but not really excellent at any one task. I drink as much Green Kool-Aid as the next guy, so I purchased them at launch. There's not much downside because of the 30-day return. I do feel sorry for the guys who drank just a bit too much Green-Aid and kept theirs... It's also part of the problem with the talking heads -- get paid a few bucks to lend their name to a Green product that's over-priced and largerly useless... ==>PC Low Profiles online for about 120 shipped That's the kit price... Sans-kit is about $85. ==>new pads costing 60 bucks That's one advantage of FT -- you can actually get other pads -- hard, mid, soft, extra-soft, etc. While others list pads, many times they are vaperware. ==>palm activated switch, seems more ergonomic as well SOP in the pneumatic sander world. Yes, it's more ergonomic. ==>Ceros 150/5 would be sufficient for finish sanding There are entire threads on this question... A lot depends on your definition of 'finish' sanding... ==>PC Low Profile for mid sanding and Ceros 150/3 for finish be a better idea? The FT 150/3 is a great finish sander --- no matter how you define it. The Ceros 150/5 does outperform the PC-LP, but it's about $350 more cost. The PC-LP for mid-sanding and FT 150/3 for finish would be a great combo. You could get better performance with all FT, all Mirka or Mirka+FT, but these combos would cost $100 and $500 incremental... I love the FT 150/3 and think the PC-LP is great bang/buck, so that's my 'recomended' combo. The best 'performing combo' -- Mirka 150/5 + Mirka 150/2.5 - I'd get one kit and one bare tool -- so about $400 incremental... BTW: Mirka's changed their pricing strategy. If you go all-CEROS, then only the first sander is $500 -- the rest are about $175 each... Of course, I got my first four prior to the price change... Oh well, sh*t happens. Taking that logic a bit further: The PC + The 150/3...any room for the RO 90 as a third? I wish I had picked up another PC when they were more available. I suppose I also need a route when it inevitably breaks, as all things I love do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 The RO 90 is pretty sweet, but you've got to have the applicaiton(s) to justify it -- I use it for boat maintance -- teak railings, hand-holds, etc are the perfest size for the RO90. I also put the polishing pad on and go after deck railings, stanchions, the wheel, any/all brass, etc -- it's a great general-purpose marine sander... Good for small-scale DIY -- wooden shutters (I've got about 30 pair), outdoor refinishing, etc... I don't think you can go wrong with the 150/3 -- is a great finish sander. The PC Low-profile is a no-brainer if you can get one... One other consideration -- If you're going to mix PC and FT, I'd go Abranet abrasives... It used to drive me crazy keeping an inventory of 220 in three (or more) hole patterns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 BTW: Mirka's changed their pricing strategy. If you go all-CEROS, then only the first sander is $500 -- the rest are about $175 each... That's awesome, I could wait and go that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 The RO 90 is actually very handy for all sorts of tasks, but you will want a 6" unless you enjoy extra work. The 150/3 or 150/5 are great. One thing to keep in mind is that Festool products are designed to be repaired, not tossed when they break. Although, so far mine haven't broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSparger Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 After deliberating the same thing for a while I ended up buying the Bosch ROS65VC and I am very pleased with it so far. The vibration level is very low, love the ergonomics of it and the dust control on it seems to be very good. Not the least expensive but it's about $120 less than the ETS 150/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I wore out several Bosches , my ETS150/3 has held up for over 7 years in my small pro shop. Yea It might be slow at the rougher end of finishing but it does just fine for finish work for me. Take longevity into the consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrolan Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Yea It might be slow at the rougher end of finishing Where do you consider the "rougher end of finishing" to be in terms of grit or whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 That's too bad about the PC low profile being discontinued. I've thought about getting one if/when my current ROS didn't suit my needs. I'd suggest the corresponding Dewalt, but it looks like it too has been discontinued.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm with you Mike, PC has changed a lot since I was a kid. While their routers are still really well made, and probably their best line of products. I feel like they entered a lower end market with some of their stuff to appeal to the big box store masses. That's what Craftsman, Ryobi, and Rigid are for, big box store items. Dewalt is also starting to follow this model to some extent. Dewalt I think has always been more geared towards contractor and DIY power users, but now aiming for the craft market. I've got a huge PC pro circular saw from the 80s that's built like a tank, and has nutty amounts of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrolan Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Dewalt is also starting to follow this model to some extent. Dewalt I think has always been more geared towards contractor and DIY power users, but now aiming for the craft market. Dewalt is doing a lot of very subtle things with their products trying to walk the line and be in both markets. They still have their best tools with brushless motors and all that, but they also have cheaper versions of extremely similar tools with extremely similar looks. It's almost like it's intentionally confusing. They are also selling lesser versions in their multi-tool combo packs (as an example, one of the 20V Max combo packs has the circular saw, but the combo version has a much cheaper/simpler baseplate than if you buy the circular saw standalone...little things but they add up). I really like Dewalt, and I have a lot of their tools, but you have to pay attention to the details when buying them. (Edit: See this link for an example of the differences in their stand-alone versus combo kit.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Dewalt is doing a lot of very subtle things with their products trying to walk the line and be in both markets. They still have their best tools with brushless motors and all that, but they also have cheaper versions of extremely similar tools with extremely similar looks. It's almost like it's intentionally confusing. They are also selling lesser versions in their multi-tool combo packs (as an example, one of the 20V Max combo packs has the circular saw, but the combo version has a much cheaper/simpler baseplate than if you buy the circular saw standalone...little things but they add up). I really like Dewalt, and I have a lot of their tools, but you have to pay attention to the details when buying them. (Edit: See this link for an example of the differences in their stand-alone versus combo kit.) That bit about different tools in the combos I think is SOP for many manufacturers. I know TTI does it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 ==>ended up buying the Bosch ROS65VC and I am very pleased with it so far. I'm a big fan of Bosch... Their drills are every bit as good as FT, but much less expensive. Their Jigsaw is quite good for the money Their SCMS is almost a Kapex for about $600 less. Their sanders... well, there have been rough patches.... I've got their 18v and 12v kits -- so maybe 10-12 tools in all. I don't think there's a dud in the bunch. Most tool companies have their ups/downs: For example, FT generally make a good tool, but their jigsaws are infamous. I love PC's fised-base routers, but their plunge gear is nothing special. The rise of the BORG strongly influenced tool manufacturers: PC/DeWalt/Milwaukee/etc -- they've all traded quality/longevity for cost. If you're selling to that audiance, somethings got to give... I still respect PC routers -- I've got a bunch. DeWalt has never really been up there. The sadest story is Milwaukee... As a kid trailing behind my father as the tool gofer, Milwaukee was considered the best drill, reciprocating saw, etc. The only way to get better was Hilti... Now -- I've got some Milwauklee kit I purchased a couple of years ago based on reputation --- a reputation they no longer deserve... Comparing my father's Milwaukee drills to the ones I got is like apples and oranges... I remember dropping his from a roof and it dented the deck --- I seriously doubt todays Milwaukee would do the same. At this point, Milwauklee has slipped to BORG-grade kit or slightly over... Vyrolan makes a good point... A friend of mine is a general contractor specializing in high-end renovation work... He gave me similar advice on paying attention... Sometimes a tool manufacturer will make a tool specifically for box-store sales. They take a standard drill, substitute a nylon gear train and keep the same model number, but with an extra digit/letter/something to designate it as box-store only... He demonstrated it easily by grabbing one of my drills purchased on Amazon and comparing it to one he purchased at Force Tools (a now-defunct NJ tool dealer)... The drills looked the same and had the same model number, but his was obviously heavier, had a better made trigger and better chuck.... So if DeWalt does this, the others probably do as well... One thing he mentioned that was interesting... Many contractors now consider tools disposable -- He was starting down that path as well... He'll start a job by purchasing $500 in tools, do the job, then give the tools to his helpers, the homeowner, etc. For him, BORG tools are good for that job, then move on to the next... In addition to cost, the other reason came with the closing of many tool repair depots... If your a contractor, you can't be bothered to ship a tool 500 miles to be repainred -- just drive 15miles to the nearest BORG and buy another.... Interesting state of affairs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Trip, I've got some of my dad's Milwaukee tools, and the drills are heavy duty for sure. I wouldn't say all there stuff has gone down hill. I think their battery operated M18 line is actually very well made especially compared to a lot of other brands, with loads of power behind them. Their corded tools as of late are pretty horrible though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 <3 the Bosch barrel jig saws, one of the best jigsaws ever made IMHO. I was given a fair amount of tools from my father. When I was growing up he would get tools that he needed, and then a second set of power hand tools and pliers, wrenches, sockets, etc and he put together a set of everything for me. He used to do kitchens and bathrooms, was a machinist, and master mechanic throughout different phases of his life, now he's retired and he's my assistant for when I'm building larger pieces. He'd get promo items from companies and things like that. I've got tools that will probably never see the light of day. How many woodworkers need a Hilti TE60, or a Bosch jackhammer? But it's all stuff from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Trip, it's always great growing up and following around your dad when learning at a young age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I would rather spend money on things that saved me from having to do a bunch of sanding rather than buying a herd of expensive sanders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 PB, there are only 2 certainties in life.... Sanding, and death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 PB, there are only 2 certainties in life.... Sanding, and death. Yes but you can always sand less. In this case less is more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 ==>rather spend money on things that saved me from having to do a bunch of sanding rather than buying a herd of expensive sanders. Agreed... Anything upstream that reduces the amount of sanding is a good investment... Helical/Tersa cutterhead's a good example. A sharp WWII reduces burning. A sharp smoother can eliminate a bunch of sanding... While expensive, stationary sanders certainly improve workflow. To Don's point, if you plan to spend $1500 on protable sanders, maybe $1K of that should go towards a drum sander... Something to consider... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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