..Kev Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Brief comment is worth the mention. It places a value on the price of the brake. Completely agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 No worries bud.. Your point is valid, as is the counter point.. I'd just hate to see the thread derailed to rehash old debates.. Thanks Didn't know it had gone this route before I'll hush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Thanks Didn't know it had gone this route before I'll hush lol - Comes up about every 6 months or so.. I certainly hope you don't "hush", you have good content to share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Thanks for all the replies. I do agree that the safety features are worth bringing up & certainly no one has mounted the soap box about it. I should have mentioned in my original post that I'd already had the great internal debate about safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Crawford Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm 75 - about three years ago I noticed my concentration in the shop was not what it used to be. I found myself starting to do something that was not smart and I would not have done previously. Aging happens. If you are not a pro this is probably the last cabinet table saw you will buy. Give serious thought to a Saw Stop. I have one (at my wife insistence) and it has already saved serious damage to a finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I look at it like this. While a SawStop is a great saw, and the safety feature is fantastic, it's no excuse to be sloppy with your technique and proper usage of the tool. However should there by any sort of mishap, it's nice to know you're not gonna lose digits. If the prices are similar ie: PowerMatic 3HP saw and SawStop 3HP saw, I'd go SawStop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefmagnus@grics.net Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 If I could trade both of my table saws for a sawstop, I would. I just got to use a saw with 3HP for the first time and the ease that it cut a hard exotics. So any saw that I purchase in the future will be at least 3HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I really wanted a Sawstop or Powermatic when I bought my cabinet saw a earlier this year, but just couldn't justify spending that much. I didn't see it on your list, but the Grizzly G1023 is great saw at a reasonable price. I have no regrets with my purchase. There is no reason this saw shouldn't last me the rest of my life. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotscott Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 The PM2000 and the Saw Stop PCS/ICS are all great saws.....all imported. The SS offers something the PM does not. If I were going to spend what a PM costs, I'd definitely opt for the SS. If the cost of the premium saws is hard to justify, I'd opt for a Grizzly G1023RL or RLW.....tough to beat the bang for the buck if you're willing to be you own middleman. The Shop Fox Classic fence is a good Biese clone, but the fit and finish aren't quite as good IMO....however, AFAIK the Biese fence is a direct fit on the SF Classic rails, so you could always put that on the new Grizzly saw, and sell the SF Classic fence on your old saw. The G0690 is a solid choice too, but the fence is slightly different from the SF Classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minorhero Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Going back to the OP. Why not buy the saw you want ignoring the fence it comes with then move the 52" Bessy you already own to the new saw. Move whatever new fence you buy over to the jet and sell it. Best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Going back to the OP. Why not buy the saw you want ignoring the fence it comes with then move the 52" Bessy you already own to the new saw. Move whatever new fence you buy over to the jet and sell it. Best of both worlds. This is a very good point and ultimately what I did. Bought the Grizzly, installed the biesemeyer fence and never looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weithman5 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm 75 - about three years ago I noticed my concentration in the shop was not what it used to be. I found myself starting to do something that was not smart and I would not have done previously. Aging happens. If you are not a pro this is probably the last cabinet table saw you will buy. Give serious thought to a Saw Stop. I have one (at my wife insistence) and it has already saved serious damage to a finger. i have a general rule, when i make any kind of mistake, measurement error, forget where i put something, etc, i quit for the night. as far as the saw goes, i have a rigid saw i bought used from the rental at HD. If i were going to upgrade and the price of the SS was close to whatever else i was considering it would win hands (fingers) down. If i was not going to make that cost leap, then I would not have any problem with grizzly, pm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Buy a shaper! Sorry had to say it. If the little pm has the same fence as the pm2k it's fine. I have the pm2k. CORRECT NOT CORRECT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 This is becoming more complicated. Originally wanting to spend about $2300 for a 1.75 HP saw. A lot are saying 3 HP is the way to go. So then I'm up to $3500 or so. I tend to be a go big or go home type, but that is a lot of cash & this is only a hobby for me. Grizzly seems to have a pretty good fan base, but not being able to see & touch one makes it difficult to go that way. Most of what I'm reading about them is that they are a great value, but not really high in quality. If I'm buying something like that I'd like to see just what concessions I'd be making & if I'd be happy with them. You people have certainly given me lots to think about & I thank you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 PB: I'm starting to get the idea that you have a thing for shapers And the guard thing is another reason for a new saw. The old one has a completely useless guard. Apple Wood: The fence swap is a good idea. That old Beis is a sweet fence. But then I'd still have to cut it down, which makes me sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 This is becoming more complicated. Originally wanting to spend about $2300 for a 1.75 HP saw. A lot are saying 3 HP is the way to go. So then I'm up to $3500 or so. I tend to be a go big or go home type, but that is a lot of cash & this is only a hobby for me. Grizzly seems to have a pretty good fan base, but not being able to see & touch one makes it difficult to go that way. Most of what I'm reading about them is that they are a great value, but not really high in quality. If I'm buying something like that I'd like to see just what concessions I'd be making & if I'd be happy with them. You people have certainly given me lots to think about & I thank you for it. I had this bone headed idea that I would buy a couple grizzly 5hp saws and put in a huge table for four saws. The grizzly saws were not all that. It took less time to resell them than it did to have them shipped. 3hp is enough for most people but as is 1.75 just depends on what you like doing. If you don't think you will ever work with 8/4 stock then a 1.75 is fine. Personally I would never buy another "american" style saw PM SS none of them. I'd take even the smallest hammer K3 over any of them for a hobby shop unfortunately they are expensive and start at about $3600. If I was setting up a hobby shop I'd buy the 4hp Hammer and a Festoon track saw. If I could start over Id buy a Felder all in one and almost did but was stuck in the american heavy metal mentality and regret it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minorhero Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Why cut down the fence? It is really not that much bigger than the smallest available. Are you really tight on space? If its bothering you that much look around for someone willing to swap rails with you. Probably some 30" bessy users out there wouldn't mind swapping to a larger size. But unless I was super tight on space I wouldn't bother with such measures, just enjoy the greater capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I had this bone headed idea that I would buy a couple grizzly 5hp saws and put in a huge table for four saws. The grizzly saws were not all that. It took less time to resell them than it did to have them shipped. 3hp is enough for most people but as is 1.75 just depends on what you like doing. If you don't think you will ever work with 8/4 stock then a 1.75 is fine. Personally I would never buy another "american" style saw PM SS none of them. I'd take even the smallest hammer K3 over any of them for a hobby shop unfortunately they are expensive and start at about $3600. If I was setting up a hobby shop I'd buy the 4hp Hammer and a Festoon track saw. If I could start over Id buy a Felder all in one and almost did but was stuck in the american heavy metal mentality and regret it today.The Felder or Hammer all in one units are what I've been dreaming about having in my shop one day. If these tools I have now last me long enough, I can save up and invest in it eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 We do have a Felder/Hammer dealer in Calgary so I think I'll have a look at them. Apple Wood: My shop is a 2 car garage that I share with 2 cars & that extra foot & a half really will make the difference between having to continually move the saw & not (fortunately my wife drives a Smart). I rarely use the fence past 30" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotscott Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 ...Most of what I'm reading about them is that they are a great value, but not really high in quality... That really depends on how you define quality. It may not be premium industrial quality, but I've never had a full size Grizzly industrial machine that I thought was lacking in quality, or that wasn't very capable for what I needed....most owners seem to feel the same way. I suspect that many nay-sayers are speculators who don't speak from experience, or who have an opinion based on 30 year old info, or who bought an entry level hand tool that didn't work well and extrapolate that view to their better machines, or someone who truly needed a higher level machine. I read very few complaints from owners of the better Grizzly saws. In many cases over the years, Grizzly machines have been made in the same plant as PM, Jet, Laguna, Baleigh and other often more expensive brands....lack of dealer markup and shorter warranty accounts for a large part of the price difference. Sheer volume is another large part of the price difference....it's likely that Grizzly sells more than Delta, Jet, and PM combined these days. Sales volume can also lead to more complaints available to read on line....don't confuse higher complaint numbers with higher defect ratios. If Grizzly sells 3x the volume and has a comparable defect rate, it's logical that they'd have 3x the quality complaints. Unhappy campers are far more likely to post than a happy camper....that's just human nature. I can certainly understand not wanting to buy a machine like this sight-unseen though. As a comparison, the Grizzly G0690 is nearly identical to the Candadian Craftex CX-200....if you have a Busy Bee near you, take a look. At this level, the bolt on stuff is where most of the differences are....fence, switches, etc. These are all good saws....blade selection and setup are the key factors in the end performance. You really have to ask yourself what more do you get for the money with some of the other brands. Saw Stop and Hammer do at least offer something unique from the others. Here are some pics to compare...the first is a pre-riving knife era Griz 1023 compared to a Jet Xacta: Here's a post-riving knife Griz G0690, Laguna Platinum, Jet Xacta, and Griz 1023RL: Same saw, 4 brands shown below: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 None of these machines are industrial. Industrial is a word thrown around to make them sound like something they are not. North field is industrial all these little saws are just saws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 That really depends on how you define quality. It may not be premium industrial quality, but I've never had a full size Grizzly industrial machine that I thought was lacking in quality, or that wasn't very capable for what I needed....most owners seem to feel the same way. I suspect that many nay-sayers are speculators who don't speak from experience, or who have an opinion based on 30 year old info, or who bought an entry level hand tool that didn't work well and extrapolate that view to their better machines, or someone who truly needed a higher level machine. I read very few complaints from owners of the better Grizzly saws. In many cases over the years, Grizzly machines have been made in the same plant as PM, Jet, Laguna, Baleigh and other often more expensive brands....lack of dealer markup and shorter warranty accounts for a large part of the price difference. Sheer volume is another large part of the price difference....it's likely that Grizzly sells more than Delta, Jet, and PM combined these days. Sales volume can also lead to more complaints available to read on line....don't confuse higher complaint numbers with higher defect ratios. If Grizzly sells 3x the volume and has a comparable defect rate, it's logical that they'd have 3x the quality complaints. Unhappy campers are far more likely to post than a happy camper....that's just human nature. I can certainly understand not wanting to buy a machine like this sight-unseen though. As a comparison, the Grizzly G0690 is nearly identical to the Candadian Craftex CX-200....if you have a Busy Bee near you, take a look. At this level, the bolt on stuff is where most of the differences are....fence, switches, etc. These are all good saws....blade selection and setup are the key factors in the end performance. You really have to ask yourself what more do you get for the money with some of the other brands. Saw Stop and Hammer do at least offer something unique from the others. Pretty eye opening comparison.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 Pretty eye opening comparison.. Not really photos can be deceptive. Griz casting are not as good as the higher end models. The cab material is thinner. There are plenty of differences. The came out of the same factory thing is meaningless. Side by side the giz 5hp saws I bought compared to the pm 5hp saw and jet 5hp were plenty different. Get your hands on a saw go to a showroom pictures don't tell the whole story. Many of the nay sayer's have actually owned both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotscott Posted November 8, 2014 Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 Not really photos can be deceptive. Griz casting are not as good as the higher end models. The cab material is thinner. There are plenty of differences. The came out of the same factory thing is meaningless. Side by side the giz 5hp saws I bought compared to the pm 5hp saw and jet 5hp were plenty different. Get your hands on a saw go to a showroom pictures don't tell the whole story. Many of the nay sayer's have actually owned both. Coming from the same factory certainly doesn't ensure that machines are identical, and I'm not trying say that it does, but it's far more than meaningless. If the parts are cast at the same factory, they don't generally go to the trouble to switch to inferior molds and casting process for Grizzly. (the PM66 and PM2000 are obviously different than the saws shown above). Process changes take time and cost money. Inventorying different parts takes time and costs money. It's just not usually worth their time for the casted core parts. It's far easier for the factory to crank out the same part the same way every time....if the process is in control, 99.7% of all the parts will be statistically identical. What gets bolted to the cast parts is more likely to differ than the castings that come from the same plant. All I'm saying is that in some cases, Grizzly parts are indeed identical and shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to something that costs more. Manufacturers and retailers wouldn't take advantage of a consumer's ignorance and brand loyalty would they?! It's also worth noting that most of the models from most of the manufacturer's are in a constant state of change, so what's currently true may not be true of future or past eras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted November 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2014 Well, the Hammer is out. Beautiful machine, but just way too much money. The K3 Winner (mid K3 model) is $6300. Knotscott: that's the kind of info I'm looking for. Thanks. We do have a Busy Bee so I'll have a look at the Craftex. Maybe I'll like the Craftex, the prices are good. PB: your points are taken, but I don't need/want an industrial product. This is just a hobby. And I do realize that coming from the same factory doesn't mean a lot. They just build to whatever specs a brand orders. If I decide to spend $3500+ I think I'll go SawStop. After encounters with the Powermatic dealer & customer service yesterday, I've about ruled out them. I've decide to go with 3 HP. I never have regretted having too much power in a tool or a car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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