Steve Edgar Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I see Powermatic offers a 'parallelogram' and a non 'parallelogram model. Is there big difference? The prices are the same. Also is there a benefit to knives or helical cutters. In just went through a disappointing episode with a JET 6" jointer and am looking for a higher quality (and price) jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Depends on how you use the jointer. Parallelogram types are easier to adjust without shims. If you set up for hollow jointing you need parallelogram. If you make heavy cuts you will want straight knives. Helicals cut nice but have a limited depth of cut. If your the guy that just makes lots of shallow cuts and just keeps feeding until your flat then helical parallelogram is probably the right choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 The shelix vs straight knife can go any direction depending on usage. The thing with smaller jointers and planers is that when a shelix gets installed its a conversion from single knife to shelix even when you buy them from manufacturers like powermatic. Its no different than a tersa conversion because the tersa is a multi knife head which is why they outperform straight and shelix. Rather than redesign the machine with either more HP or more head speed manufacturers just change out the head. Because of this there are some slight drawbacks but for the most part the hobby users will not see them unless they start using the machines to their full capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroDave Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Steve I am at the same decision point as you. Given the 15% Black Friday sales on Powermatic the price is more within reach for me. At this point I have pretty much decided on the PJ-882HH. Because of this there are some slight drawbacks but for the most part the hobby users will not see them unless they start using the machines to their full capability. PB what is "full capability"? Is it volume of work or quality or some other factor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Steve I am at the same decision point as you. Given the 15% Black Friday sales on Powermatic the price is more within reach for me. At this point I have pretty much decided on the PJ-882HH. PB what is "full capability"? Is it volume of work or quality or some other factor? Depth of cut and feed rate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeff70 Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 The Byrd head is desirable because it never needs sharpening. A big time saver... unless you like setting up knives and maintaining those blades; spending money on more knives, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Edgar Posted November 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I tried the 6" jointer from JET. Set up is a challenge and after setting up the fence it was loose (1/32"-1/16" ) at the far ends when gripped and lightly pulled. After that, I examined the machine more closely and was not favorably impressed with what is there for $ 900 +. I'm worried now that a decent machine (not just a jointer but most machines) is priced too far out of reach unless I make my living woodworking. I miss the days when a Craftsman was a decent tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Not to hijack the thread, but have some of you tried the 'indexed knives' version that Powermatic offers? Does it significantly ease the process of installing knives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Helical is of limited utility for a jointer. It allows mfgs to skimp on HP while up-charging for the head. The whole 'no-teareout' nonsence is addressed with back-beveled knives... Non-helical spiral/segmented are a clear step backwards. True helical cutterheads are more useful when thickness planing. Personally, I use Tersa -- very little skin in this game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Helical is of limited utility for a jointer. It allows mfgs to skimp on HP while up-charging for the head. The whole 'no-teareout' nonsence is addressed with back-beveled knives... Non-helical spiral/segmented are a clear step backwards. True helical cutterheads are more useful when thickness planing. Personally, I use Tersa -- very little skin in this game... I tend to agree but most don't seem to be receptive to having knives ground properly for either machine. Not sure if it's just to much hassle or they just don't want to get into the why and how of cutters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Not to hijack the thread, but have some of you tried the 'indexed knives' version that Powermatic offers? Does it significantly ease the process of installing knives? I have never seen them so I think they may only be on the little jointers. I wouldn't want knives weakened by drilling extra holes on a big jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I tend to agree but most don't seem to be receptive to having knives ground properly for either machine. Not sure if it's just to much hassle or they just don't want to get into the why and how of cutters. I'm going to be buying a Jointer in the near future and would love to here more about the why and how's. I didn't know tersa was even an option to consider. I don't need a production machine but at the same time would like some efficiency in my work flow. Most of my work is done with exotics. I know from experience that upgrading my DW735 with strait blade to a shelix head was one of the best moves I ever made for my specific needs. My budget for a Jointer is maxed out at 4k (not what I want to spend, but willing to). If there is any one machine I don't want to skimp on, it's this one. I have 220v 1ph in the shop. If I have a 13" planer, wouldn't I ultimately want a 12" jointer? That said, what machine would you recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Tersa really is not an option for most. We have a Martin with a 4 knife tersa nothing affordable compares to this type of machine/cutter. My PM straight knife has been a good machine. A 12" jointer is good for skewing the pieces and the long bed length I've never jointed 12" with it. I would always say longer is better and unfortunately to get much longer your stuck going wider. If you go straight knife it's good to have a local grinder that will custom grind to suit you needs. I bought mine with helical and converted to straight knife. Most that have problems with curly woods are using the wrong grind. This applies to most every cutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>Not sure if it's just to much hassle or they just don't want to get into the why and how of cutters. That's a factor... As always, a sharp edge cures 90% of all woodworking problems… But the 800 pound gorilla is the manufacturer’s marketing departments… From the manufacturer’s perspective: market opportunity for ‘new’ technology, capitalizing on the hype-cycle, liberally spreading money around for paid sponsorships, mag advertising, etc… Faced with a constant barrage of talking heads, sales people and adverts all touting the benefits of helical cutterheads, it’s difficult to evaluate the pros/cons of the design. The marketing machine’s working as designed: find something ‘new’ that resonates, push it until the market’s saturated, then find the next ‘new’ thing. Just open FWW, PopW, et al… At the end of the day, exactly how many articles, podcasts, videos, et al do we need with the title, “Upgrade to a Helical Head”? The answer is: until the market’s saturated… In all that messaging, have any talking heads or articles discussed the actual pros/cons of helical, or just positioned it as an ‘upgrade’? I’ve only heard one podcast discuss the real pro/cons and position helical as a ‘potential’ benefit, depending on workflow… As far a woodworker’s investing $$, you could do far worse than helical heads – they enable bench-top planers… For me, the real issue are the non-helical designs drafting behind helical’s hype-cycle… The spiral, segmented, etc designs don’t bring anything to the table, but how’s anyone to know? Mfg’s don’t exactly highlight the differences… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>Not sure if it's just to much hassle or they just don't want to get into the why and how of cutters. That's a factor... As always, a sharp edge cures 90% of all woodworking problems… But the 800 pound gorilla is the manufacturer’s marketing departments… From the manufacturer’s perspective: market opportunity for ‘new’ technology, capitalizing on the hype-cycle, liberally spreading money around for paid sponsorships, mag advertising, etc… Faced with a constant barrage of talking heads, sales people and adverts all touting the benefits of helical cutterheads, it’s difficult to evaluate the pros/cons of the design. The marketing machine’s working as designed: find something ‘new’ that resonates, push it until the market’s saturated, then find the next ‘new’ thing. Just open FWW, PopW, et al… At the end of the day, exactly how many articles, podcasts, videos, et al do we need with the title, “Upgrade to a Helical Head”? The answer is: until the market’s saturated… In all that messaging, have any talking heads or articles discussed the actual pros/cons of helical, or just positioned it as an ‘upgrade’? I’ve only heard one podcast discuss the real pro/cons and position helical as a ‘potential’ benefit, depending on workflow… As far a woodworker’s investing $$, you could do far worse than helical heads – they enable bench-top planers… For me, the real issue are the non-helical designs drafting behind helical’s hype-cycle… The spiral, segmented, etc designs don’t bring anything to the table, but how’s anyone to know? Mfg’s don’t exactly highlight the differences… Unfortunately true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>I wouldn't face joint 12" for a couple reasons: Because I suspect there will be some Googling on these topics, some clarification on terminology may be in order… What the US tends to call face jointing, Euro pattern makers call ‘face planning’ or ‘surface planning’… Equipment nomenclature follows – A larger Euro-style ‘jointer’ is not called a ‘jointer’, but a ‘surface planer’… In this lexicon, ‘edge jointing’ is reduced to ‘jointing’… Like all things woodworking, this is not universal – some Euro mfg’s have adopted the American lexicon for the English-language versions of their websites… So if you visit Martin, Felder, etc and don’t find ‘jointers’, look for 'surfacing machines' or 'planers'… For many manufactures, the 'jointer' and 'planer' are really both planers: a ‘surface planer’ and a ‘thickness planer’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 http://www.cggschmidt.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=AC400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>I wouldn't face joint 12" for a couple reasons More a function of length than width... Surfacing wide stock is really not a problem if the infeed table supports it... I frequently surface wide stock for shop-made veneers. For longer stock, I made a really big push stick (actually more of a pull stick) that's been termed, 'Pushzilla'. I can safely surface to about 7' (my infeed is somewhere between 4 and 5 feet -- I don't do mm). Your point on stock is spot-on. If a stick badly cupped or has a good deal of wind, then I don't run it over the surfacer out of the gate. Depending on the stick, I’ll take a jack to the high-spots and then run it over the surfacer… Or skip-plane it, then surface one side… It all depends… But you’re spot-on – wide cupped stock is going to get a lot thinner if you head straight to the jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>http://www.cggschmid....php?prod=AC400 Wait, a 167 pages on grinding -- I'm getting an erection* *Apologies in advance to our lady members... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>http://www.cggschmid....php?prod=AC400 Wait, a 167 pages on grinding -- I'm getting an erection* *Apologies in advance to our lady members... To much information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I'm trying for some warning points... I was over on the other thread --- seems like everyone's got a few... Maybe if I start a thread on PVC Ductwork Fires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 A longer jointer is not just for long boards. 99% of what I do is pretty short. I'd prefer my in feed table to be as long or longer than the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 ==>I'd prefer my in feed table to be as long or longer than the stock Absolutely... Having the stock fully resting on the infeed table with iron to spare makes the operation run far smoother (at least for me)... I probably can't prove it, but I bet it's much safer as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 I purchased the PJ-882 on sale and intended on upgrading to a Helical cutter. 5 years later I still have the straight knives installed and don't see a need to upgrade. It's a great jointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Thanks guys. Some good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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