Domino over use


dwacker

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This should be worth a few warning points. :)

We flew in a close friend to help out with some production issues he works for a old high end furniture manufacturer. Over dinner the domino came up. He had a pretty harsh opinion of domino over use and believes that furniture makers that use dominos in high end work sold at a premium are frauds and likened the over use to cheap imported furniture.

Although I think frauds is a harsh word I do think there is some merit to the point.

What's your opinion.

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I prefer traditional joinery if I'm in a sentimental mood, but I don't see the Domino as a sign of inferior work in any way whatsoever.  Strength tests show that they are just as strong as a traditional M&T...and if not just as strong, "strong enough" by far.  It's not a question of mechanics, only a question of philosophy.  And he's entitled to his opinion.  I think he's probably just pissed off that the Domino allows less skilled and experienced builders to knock out higher quality furniture more quickly without "putting in their time."

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Don’t know if you’ll garner warning points, but you may get a lively debate…

 

The domino/fastener issue can be successfully argued both ways… I spend most of my summers working with boats/antiques and winters building new (many times with a Domino, or more recently, the D-XL)… I regularly handle early 18C through mid 19C pieces and you can usually tell right away which used traditional joinery and which used dowels (or some other artifice and/or fastener)…

 

I suppose the Domino issue comes down to what you call ‘fine furniture’… Is the piece destined for the landfill when your kids clean-out your house or end-up at the Smithsonian in 300 years’ time?

 

Woodworker’s disdain nails, yet revere Shaker furniture… disdain screws, yet revere Maloof and the Green/Hall partnership… disdain dowels, yet revere Krenov… The list goes on and on…

 

The folks who claim there is no difference have never worked on 300 year old furniture --- there is a difference -- full stop. How much it matters?? That's an interesting question...

 

I’ll noodle on this for a while… Let me take some snaps of 18C and 19C joinery, dowels, screws, nails, dovetails, etc  – the Good, Bad and Ugly of period craftsmanship – maybe that would  help clarify a few points…

 

<edit>

 

BTW: Working with antiques has changed my perspective on joinery -- I now pin everything (as long as it looks good or can be hidden)... Especially Dominos…

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Domino is an awesome tool and for more than just joinery.  I used it yesterday for alignment when I was making a picture frame.

 

Personally, I don't see why anyone would shy away from it's use.  If you have the time and want to make the M&T traditionally, go for it.  If you're making a buck at it and time counts then, this tool is a money maker.  

 

Most likely, those that shy away from it have never used it

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I have cut mortise and tenon joints almost every concievable way.   I started with the table saw and tenon jig, then went to flat cut with a dado stack, then went to the "speed tenon", and then ended up in Tom Fidgen's tutelage cutting with a hand saw.  Mortises started with a router, then mortise machine, and then by hand with drill and chisel.

 

I liked all these methods, and the hand cut was by far the most enjoyable.  I finally took the plunge and bought a domino last year, and I love it.  It has changed the way I build and think about joinery.

 

I can't see how the domino is any more "a cheat" than a biscuit joiner, a mortise machine, or even a tenon jig.

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Don't own one but have a point to offer:

The question that answers the question for me is "What does the Domino replace?" If this is dowel vs Domino, no question. If this is stub tenon vs Domino no question. So what replacement even changes the equation?

I always appreciate your opinions as well thought out and documented HHH. There has to be a consideration for modern glue chemistry if you bring in antiques into the discussion.

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I really don't see it any different than cnc or even the multi router. The imported furniture industry has moved away from beach tenons due to short term success but that's not to say that using same wood tenons would not be a viable option. That being said even imported manufacturers for the most part have raised the bar with cnc traditional m&t. I can also see the point that some use dominos out of simplicity where a completely different joint all together would have served better.

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Totally agree, Carus.  I think comparing Dominoes to dowels or screws is a false equivalence.  I appreciate your vast experience with antiques, Trip, but between the engineering of the Domino and modern glues, I don't really see the relevance.  Since the Domino is less than a decade old, we can't say with certainty the longevity of the joint, but certainly it is greater than a doweled or screwed one.  As great as a traditional M&T?  Perhaps not, but I don't see why, since it's essentially the same in construction except it's glued at both ends instead of only one.

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I use my Domino constantly. Unless you are offering an historicly correct reproduction I see no downside to using a machine cut loose tenon. Does he hand chop his mortices or use a hollow chisel morticer? I feel like a domino joint is far superior to pocket screws, but they have their place too. I used pocket screws and dominos to make the legs on my huge mahogany coffee table project sturdy but removable for moving and shipping.

I applaud the craftsmen who keep the traditional mortice and tenon joint skills alive. Before I got my Domino it was rare that I had a client who could afford true M&T work. Biscuit joinery just isn't deep or stiff enough, plus there were always issues with the width in narrow parts.

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Totally agree, Carus.  I think comparing Dominoes to dowels or screws is a false equivalence.  I appreciate your vast experience with antiques, Trip, but between the engineering of the Domino and modern glues, I don't really see the relevance.  Since the Domino is less than a decade old, we can't say with certainty the longevity of the joint, but certainly it is greater than a doweled or screwed one.  As great as a traditional M&T?  Perhaps not, but I don't see why, since it's essentially the same in construction except it's glued at both ends instead of only one.

That's a dissimilar woods argument the furniture industry knew this 80 years ago. It closer to dowels than you would think.

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As far as the whole "cheat" thing is concerned, yes this tool gets people into the joinery game with less to no experience. My girlfriend got the hang of the domino on the first plunge. That being said, if she wanted to, she could go to the store, buy pre dimensioned lumber, cut it on the miter saw and make boxes, picture and face frames. There is a still a huge gap based on skill level what you can do with a domino, but the fact remains that the guy with no experience can start joining boards together. 

 

Now, if I wanted my girlfriend to do that same joint using the mortising machine, table saw for the tenons and bring them into fit with a rabbet block and shoulder plane, it would take a lot more time and effort. With detailed instructions and guidance, sure she can do it. But if she were a regular woodworker like everyone else starting off on their own, it would be a far more frustrating experience. 

 

In the end, it comes down to what your expectations are in your work and what you deem "fine craftsmanship". I love my power tools in my shop, but the domino is not an "intimate" tool to me as far as my work and craftsmanship are concerned. Don't shoot, it's just a preference thing!  ;)

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==>dissimilar woods argument

That's for one... and why, when it counts, I make my Dominos from project off-cuts...

 

==>modern glues, I don't really see the relevance

No offence, modern glues fail: Improper storage, bad mfg lot, bad ratios, elasticity -v- adhesion -v- cohesion (the dissimilar woods issue), etc, etc... The list is endless... And don't get me wrong -- I'm not anti-modern-glue, I love epoxy --- but I just had a 205 joint fail -- how? Probably a mixing error...

 

==>but certainly it is greater than a doweled or screwed one

Doweled I'd agree... Fasteners??? Well.... A restorer's worst nightmare is the well-placed cut nail driven by a craftsman who knows what he’s doing… Nails will outlast Dominos any day of the week… Well OK..., any century of the millennium... The Shakers loved nails… Screws?? That's a bit harder... Depends on application... I've seen lots of screw-failures in period pieces, but I just finished an 18C oval hall table with a bricked-apron held-together with hide glue and screws... Solid... I guess it depends... Probably on the guy wielding the tools...

 

BTW: Don't get me wrong -- While fasteners are much maligned, they work quite well -- Again, it can't be emphised enough --- a conservator's worst nightmare is a well-placed cut nail...

 

I should have elaborated on dowels and how they map to Dominos in my previous post -- yes, the design of the Domino facilitates better glue adhesion -- that' snot the issue I was trying to cover… The underlying issue is one of optimal joinery design. With traditional joinery, the joint is cut to maximize strength using the existing real-estate…Unless project components are designed up-front incorporating Domino sizing, compromise sneaks in…Sometimes the Domino doesn’t maximize the available real-estate… Sometimes it uses too much... Either way, it's a compromise and probably weaker then the traditional technique... How many times have we all snuck that second Domino in when not enough web remains? I’ve done it… A little extra epoxy... Got to be stronger than the wood itself... Yea, we've all been there... On the other hand, If I’d cut a traditional M/T, the actual size of the M/T would be different than the Domino size and optimized for the available stock… Same goes for router-cut loose tenon joinery.... This a prime reason dowels fail in period pieces – not so much that dowels are bad --- it’s that the joinery was not designed from the ground-up around the available dowel stock – the dowels couldn’t maximize available real-estate – or used too much… or a combination of the two... and failed…

 

I'm not slagging the Domino... I'm a big fan… I was an early adopter on the 500 and got the 700 the day it was released... Will Dominos hold-up to 300 years of use? In my cane, I doubt it – all my stuff will become landfill after I’m gone... If I ever built something I thought would be here in 300 years and wanted to use Dominos, then I’d design the joinery around the Domino – not force-fit the Domino into the joinery… The Domino's a tool -- it'll work well if used properly...

 

Of course, if I built furniture to pay the mortgage, than I'd dismount... :)

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I just saw an article about a work bench design with motorized adjustable height, using stepper motors controlled by Arduino boards (Arduino boards are programmable circuit boards for controlling electronics).  "Anyone with access to a CNC machine can make one".  They talked about the sturdy construction and attention to detail, and said something like, "this is a piece that your descendants will treat as an heirloom hundreds of years from now.

 

I did a double take, but then realized that a hundred years from now, furniture made with CNC machines and Arduino boards will be "traditional construction".

 

To my mind, "fine furniture" means choosing quality over cost or time in design and construction.

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Dissimilar woods don't move at the same rate breaking the joint. This is nothing new to the domino. It was a 60s and 70s thing when manufacturers used beach loose tenon joinery in high speed production. Glue uses the film between the two parts to hold them together. When the film breaks the joint is done. The bond to the wood fibers holds the film to the parts.

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