dwacker Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I really think over use is more common than not just as it was in the biscuit craze. I don't care about the hand vs machine debates. We were evaluating production of traditional M&T frames while this came up. Speed of joinery is a moot point as we use a Unique high speed mortise and tenon machine. Glue up and clamp time was my daughters concern so a fresh set of eyes helped. The answer was simply to change the joint. We get in the habit of doing what is easy and it affects the work quality. Ultimately we will be trying out a sliding stopped dovetail. Production speed should go up but in the end the joints ability to hold a tight glue line over the long term will increase satisfaction. I see the domino no different aside from the beech tenons. Force fitting joinery to fit the domino rather than using what is best for the task at hand. Again I see fraud as a harsh word but I do see plenty of joinery that would benefit from a different joint. The domino was just dinner conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I occasionally set up and run my own domino stock. This lets me size the tenon to my needs. There are 3 width settings on the machine but the dominoes ony come in 1 width and length. Medium and wide tenons have come in handy so many times. Rip the stock, drum sand to exact size, then round over at the router table. I cut them to length on a small sled at the tablesaw. I use a new un sharpend pencil as a hold down to control the little pieces being cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missioninwood Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I've got a Domino to put under the Christmas tree so I going to dutifully ignore all this debate and eagerly await loose-tenoning like a mad man. "Hello. My name is missioninwood and I use the Domino AND Pocket Hole joinery...." miw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Dissimilar woods don't move at the same rate breaking the joint. This is nothing new to the domino. It was a 60s and 70s thing when manufacturers used beach loose tenon joinery in high speed production. Glue uses the film between the two parts to hold them together. When the film breaks the joint is done. The bond to the wood fibers holds the film to the parts. All tenons expand and contract inside a mortise, regardless of the species. Doesn't matter what kind of wood it is...it's the nature of the joint. Tenon moves, mortise does not. I don't get how the movement issue is isolated to mixed species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>ignore all this debate and eagerly await loose-tenoning like a mad man It's a great tool... I suspect folks think I'm slagging it off, but I'm really not... Have both the 500&700 and use them a lot (probably more than I should)... However, I'm a bit more careful these days -- I think about the component's size as it relates to the Domino, not just putting them where they can fit… I really haven't adopted Steve's 3-width technique -- it's a great idea and could kick myself for not thinking of it... You’re issue will become which one to get – unless Santa is particularly in a good mood… You’ll find lots of posts on 500-v-700… For full-sized furniture, I like the 700 (more for the depth of plunge than anything else). You can now get the smaller cutters for the 700, so it’s less of an issue then it once was… For smaller stuff, the 500 is the way to go… @Steve, do you run into problems with the widest setting and alignment issues? I kind of like that 1-2mm slop... Let's be honest, I kind of need it to overcome cockpit error... I hate having to go back and ‘fit’ a domino joint – kind of kills the benefit… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 The dissimilar wood theory doesn't hold water unless the woods are contracting and expanding in the same plane and even then you have the same potential with similar woods if they are cut differently (QS vs flat). But tenon joinery is typically at angles where there is automatically a difference in movement rate. - sent via Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I make my medium and wide stock about 1 mm undersize in width for just that reason. When I am cutting a row of mortices to join a case I cut the slots in the edge of a part at the " 1 " width , this is where I insert the dominio's when assembling the joint( it holds them straight during assembly) . I cut the first slot of the other side at "1 " then switch to "2" width for the rest to compensate for any slight errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missioninwood Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 "Hello. My name is missioninwood and I use the Domino AND Pocket Hole joinery...." Sure. If Graham had written this everyone would think it was hysterical. miw 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>I make my medium and wide stock about 1 mm undersize in width for just that reason Thanks, that's great... Have you posted this on FOG? ==>When I am cutting a row of mortices to join a case I cut the slots in the edge of a part at the " 1 " width , this is where I insert the dominio's when assembling the joint( it holds them straight during assembly) . I cut the first slot of the other side at "1 " then switch to "2" width for the rest to compensate for any slight errors. Yea, the fist D is the alignment pin and the rest have some slop... I found the technique over on FOG... Before that, I was '1' all the way --- and cursing the day I baught the thing... I believe the technique now included in one of the supplemental user guides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 It holds water just fine as it always has. Stick a domino in the end grain of a a maple board the board expands and contracts. The domino or dowel does not breaking the glue interface. No different than joining QS to flat sawn. QS is more stable. The mortise side of any m&t is always the failure point. Add two with a loose joinery double the failure. Beech does not move like any commonly used woods that's why they use beech. If they used maple the dominos would swell or shrink on the shelf and there would always be fit complaints just like biscuits thus why there are biscuit press devices. Nothing new the furniture industry has known this for decades thus why beech tenons have gone by the way side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I use whatever joinery I want and don't worry too much what others think. That's just me though. Too much time and concern is spent worrying about trying to deconstruct something that someone else has made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>If Graham had written this everyone would think it was hysterical. Well, when folks saw the reference to pocket-holes they started dialing social services... Just remain calm and stay where you are, the ambulance will be arriving soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>If Graham had written this everyone would think it was hysterical. Well, when folks saw the reference to pocket-holes they started dialing social services... Just remain calm stay where you are, the ambulance will be arriving soon... Pocket holes are evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted November 23, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I guess I just don't care. Every project I've made with my Domino has come out rock solid and I expect it to last for generations. Anything made of wood is gonna start falling apart to one degree or another after a couple centuries. I take pride in my work and see no reason to look at Domino construction as "less than" for any reason other than a philosophical one...which I can appreciate. I think it's much ado about nothing. Carry on, enjoy the debate. I find it boring. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>Pocket holes are evil. Well, we could call Father Marrin... I suppose there's an appropriate ritual to cast-out joinery demons – where’s Max von Sydow when you need him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 It holds water just fine as it always has. Stick a domino in the end grain of a a maple board the board expands and contracts. The domino or dowel does not breaking the glue interface. No different than joining QS to flat sawn. QS is more stable. The mortise side of any m&t is always the failure point. Add two with a loose joinery double the failure. Beach does not move like any commonly used woods that's why they use beach. If they used maple the dominos would swell or shrink on the shelf and there would always be fit complaints just like biscuits thus why there are biscuit press devices. Nothing new the furniture industry has known this for decades thus why beach tenons have gone by the way side. I have often wondered if dissimilar was the right argument. The loose tenon winds up being encapsulated and because of that does not move as quickly with regard to humidity. If all of your end grain is sealed then this is the benefit of the true rather than floating tenon. Each board should pick up and release humidity at the same rate through the finish. Merit or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 My name is Graham and I love the domino but even better biscuits and brads :-). I've been reading a book on furniture design published in 1925 and it's amazing how the narrative was so similar to these discussions. The author of the book was not at odd's with machinery or new methods. His thoughts were based on finding the right balance and using a blend of hand and machine tools (yes it was written in 1925). He saw machines or "new" methods as something to use appropriately and lamented how machines had been forced by humans to make historic styles of work during the Victorian era which were high volume and low quality. Kinda like the Ikea debate but 1920's style. He felt it essential that a blend of new methods coupled with lessons learned is what up to date design should be all about, not a backward looking thing. Just for reference he thought gimson, ambrose heal and peter waals were good example of this from his era. If the odd domino had been used in any of those pieces would we value them any less? So is the domino cheating or wrong in any way? For the individual in their home shop, it's their rules and they should most likely do what they want, how they want and totally ignore this discussion. For period work I would not want to see a 17th Century style joined stool made with loose tenon joinery. For innovative, contemporary or "new" designs why not. It's a tool that can be used. But if you're the person who's stuff is all domino's then your stock will likely drop in the same way if it's all glue and brads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 ==>The loose tenon winds up being encapsulated and because of that does not move as quickly with regard to humidity. If all of your end grain is sealed then this is the benefit of the true rather than floating tenon. Each board should pick up and release humidity at the same rate through the finish. Merit or no? You might think so, but as with most things woodworking, the argument holds most of the time, but it’s the exceptions that kill you… Take recent events… With the ‘Polar Vortex’ of the past week, some table tops in our home have shrink by a full ½” in less than five days… and one of my DIY efforts split a well-formed epoxy joint (I suspect the mix ratio was a bit off)… Coatings retard, not eliminate... It's the diferential that's the problem... And remember, just because the mortise “doesn’t move” doesn’t mean that the mortise doesn’t move… People forget... All wood moves! Too much differential movement, not enough elasticity; not enough adhesion, too much cohesion, etc, etc and you’ve got a problem… If you want to get down-and-dirty:http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=phttp://www.amazon.com/Glue-Taunton-Woodworking-Resource-Library/dp/1561582220http://www.amazon.com/Gougeon-Brothers-Boat-Construction-Materials/dp/1878207504 Two of these can be download for free… You know how some talking heads slather-on glue, some use it sparingly, some use as much clamping pressure as they can get and some use ‘just enough’ to close the gap… And each and every one swears he’s been personally taught by Yoda… Well, they’re all right and they’re all wrong… Point is, different adhesives have different properties… Today’s woodworking adhesives have far greater elasticity…Why? Well I could be really cynical and say it’s because todays hobbyist don’t have nearly the same level of skill as yesterdays’ craftsman – or I could just say it’s because that’s what the market wants…. The result’s the same… With some of todays adhesives, you can ‘get away’ with rather poor joinery and still have something that’s going to last fifty years – no problem… Until you use those same poor techniques with hide glue, UF, etc… That’s one of the reasons educators tend to teach adhesive A, but use Adhesive B for their own shop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick A McQuay Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I will defer to those with more experience. I've only worked on furniture dating back to around 50-60 years and those with dowel joinery it was always the "mortise" side that gave first either by itself or when I've pulled them apart. - sent via Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DaveT Posted November 24, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 I don't like all these modern methods. Lets stick to doing it the proper way 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Thread Hijack.....Trip, if you ran for president, I'd vote for you. That said, I think this "argument" is extremely negligible. Look no further than the library staircase that Steve made (using a boat load of Domy's). It was finely crafted and there isn't a bone in my body that doubts it will be around for years and years to come with no flaws. Proof is in the pudding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 ==>ran for president Just a tad too smart to want that job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted November 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 You will be using a sliding dovetail for faceframe construction? Nice. I did not even known that people used m&t on FFs anymore. I really did think that pocket screws took over. Are the tradtional joints an upgrade or is that standard on your cabinets. No we use them on all FF cabinets. We made the switch when we moved from cabinet shop platform to manufacturer. I shouldn't say "we" although Im the true owner its he kids that run the place now I just write checks and make major decisions. Traditional joinery is making its way back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 ==>Look no further than the library staircase that Steve made (using a boat load of Domy's). It was finely crafted and there isn't a bone in my body that doubts it will be around for years and years to come with no flaws. Agreed… When I first saw the photos of Steve’s project, I remember thinking the joinery/Domino layout/proportions were well done… My point is, if the joinery design takes the size of the Dominos into consideration, then you’ll have greater success… Good joinery is good joinery... Joinery that's well-proportioned will last... Poor-proportioned won't... Using the II and III widths is a great idea that I'll borrow immediatly... ==>made with my Domino has come out rock solid and I expect it to last for generations I suspect an Enchanter would design Domino-based joinery that’s well proportioned… After all, he can summon fire without flint or tinder… PS... I never should have made that MP reference last week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Wow, thanks for the kudos ! It's kinda like sizing anything, what fits where going which way? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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