bushwacked Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Preface ... I would like to gear this toward the hobby side not job site thinking. Let's say a normal 2 car garage size shop at the house. Soooo in the other thread after a few posts this one post from PB in particular made me wonder ... festoon is a system designed to be compact and work together as a portable set of job site tools. Comparing Fein to FT as a system doesn't work. In a fixed shop that does not need portability there are plenty of other tools that far exceed FT in quality and usability. FT is nice for a small shop where space is at a premium where you may want to stack things in a compact organized manner. On the other hand the boxes are just boxes and any small tool can go in a similar box. FT is not the only source for T lock boxes but they are the only one with a vac that boxes can ce attached to. It's a vacuum buy what ever you want and don't feel bad about not buying into the hype. So yes Festool was designed as a compact job site tool system. Which from what I hear it excels at. However, since I am just starting out my shop which will soon be a 2 car garage space will not be an extreme limitation. I should be able to get the basics (tablesaw, planer,joiner,bandsaw,miter saw,work bench) So with that a few inches here and there would not make a huge difference. So for the most part let's say this is a fixed shop which can use 1 shop vac to help with dust on the hand tools. So in what areas would FT win at tool wise and what areas would you do good at considering other tools/brands. Sure now it kinda depends on what your building and budget but let's lay down some more ground work for this convo... 1) space not an extreme limitation 2) money doesn't matter .. Just getting the best tool for the job 3) try and keep the tools to what Festool actually makes so we can compare. So for an example... Kapex miter saw is the best in that category due to attachments and versatility with moving it and compatible with shop vac and lasers that work. A close second would be (brand so and so) because it does ABC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firehawk Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 That's like asking what Green Cool aide tastes like. You won't understand until you taste it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 That's like asking what Green Cool aide tastes like. You won't understand until you taste it Maybe. I have used Festool before but have not used some of its competition so I don't know how much better or worse it is ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Domino is really the only one without comparable alternatives. Their track saw is better than the rest but you have options there. FT sanders are head and shoulders above the HD brands but from what I hear not quite on the Mirka level. I love the OF1400, but let's face it...it doesn't do anything that other plunge routers can't do. And apparently I'm the only one who can get furniture-quality cuts on my Kapex. A lot of Kapex nay-sayers, but I love mine. Jigsaw a waste of money for what it does. Drills? No way. Give me a Makita at a fraction of the cost of FT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Give me a Makita at a fraction of the cost of FT. Absolutely or a Bosch blue drills. I have both and they function perfectly. I could have bought another with the money I saved not buying the Festool and yes I have tried them (Festool). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 My Fein vac does the job but it tips over easily. It's old so maybe they have fixed that. The Festool follows me around like a puppy dog, just tug on the hose and it rolls over most obstacles. The hose storage on the top is handy along with being a place to keep the systainer with accessories nearby. Ease of adjustment is a big thing for me, the Domino, track saw and MK trim router are so easy to get adjusted exactly as I want. I am quite happy with my Bosch cordless drills and sabre saw. So I belive in choosing tools that best fit my needs. Milwaukee makes a great corded drill, one of mine is 40 years old and still works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 3m sanders hands down over FT or Mirka. Cyclonic central vac system over any portable. Omga over Kapex any day but the price is high. Slot mortised over domino but that's a personal preference. Hand held routers I don't care PC is fine. Table routers PC 3.25hp over FT.. Obviously I'd much rather just use a shaper but a spindle is heads and shoulder nicer than the biggest routers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I have not heard of some of these so I am learning. Have not heard much on kapex good or bad. What do people not like about it? ... Besides the price? Never heard of omga but the first miter that popped up was almost double the Kapex price. Hmm first time I have heard 3m sanders over Mirka and Festool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Festool is weird. Or I should say, the fanboys are. There's quite a few things in their lineup that are lust-worthy, and some are even on my wish list. However there are people who would rather pay $40+ for a folding hex key set than the $5 one from Ikea because of the branding. Things like that. There are some power tools in their lineup that really aren't worth it as mentioned above, yet there are some who treat the entire lineup like Pokemon. Gotta catch them all! It's their money. Mine is spent a little wiser, IMO. Only one of their drills I'd consider is the CXS - otherwise, my Ryobi's can serve me well for years to come. Don't really have any use for their routers unless I get into the LR32 system - my Triton and Craftsman are pretty good value. The Kapex is nice, but for the money and the complaints I've read about them make it seem not anywhere worth the cost to me. That said, there are some real gems - the track saws are worth the extra amount over the competitors, especially if you think you may expand into the LR32 or the MFT. The Domino is really unparalleled at this point, and probably for some time - homemade horizontal router setups might be cheaper, but I'm no Mathias and most others aren't either. I'll defer to others about sanders, but I'd really like a ETS 150 and RO 90 combo to supplement my PC. Beyond those, and some accessories, my dip into the Kool-Aid probably won't be much further. I did get a refurb CT MIDI to supplement my Ridgid WD1450/Thein separator combo that has served me very well, Festools included. The variable suction and on/off appealed to me, but only at that discounted price. Otherwise, I would have made do and been just fine. You could do that combo (WD1450, Thein baffle on a 20/30g trash can and a Bosch hose) for about $150 and have tons of capability and capacity. Festool is really focused on the trades, and it shows in their use and marketing. It's a fantastic thing to be able to load everything up in a few boxes on top of their vac and roll along. For a shop-based worker though, that capability comes with an extremely steep price in terms of the systainers. You'd be much better off in terms of money and space by utilizing drawers, shelves and other shop-made solutions. Since I see myself having to be mobile in certain situations, I thought the small-ish investment in a handful of systainers and the vac would be in my best interest. The only pure negative I'll say about them is the really dumb decisions they make to keep things out of this country - things that don't need to pass UL or any other certification. Things like the driving and drilling bits and holders that fit into the attic systainers (and the attic lids themselves). Things that would be immensely beneficial to those who need them. Just dumb marketing decisions that cause a grey market for people who travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 So with the major price differences on most items. Is the quality and lifetime use any better than others that noticeable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 I didn't read this entire thread so, apologize if someone has already covered this.. Another factor to consider is product support. I know I bought the TS55 not long before the recall. FT contacted me personally to inform me of the recall and gave me 3 options. Full refund to include shipping, ship to them and wait for the repair, or free upgrade to the 75. I chose the upgrade and they shipped me the 75 that very day and asked me to use that box to send the 55 to them. My point is that their customer service is really good and their product support is awesome. There's not too many other tool manufacturers out there that I can say that about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 I've got a CT48 that I picked up during their 40% off sale. It's a great vacuum, would I pay $725 for it? Probably not, I would've gone with a CT26. I have an ETS 150/3 and the finish I've been getting is unmatched with anything else I've used. While I would have liked a Mirka Ceros, I just couldn't spend $500 on a sander. $345 was about my limit for my sander. I've had and still have a couple of Porter Cable, Dewalt, and Milwaukee random orbit sanders floating around. I don't use those for more then quick crap work. For any sort of real finish I use the 150/3. Festool can get real expensive real fast, my list of things to add to my collection of useful tools is a Domino, Track Saw, and Rotex 90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 My Festool ETS 150/3 is about 7 or 8 years old and gets daily use, sometimes all day ! I had to do the first repair to it this year, the cord socket had worn out. I was going through Bosch sanders in about 2 years before the bearings seized up. Part was only a few bucks , my Festool rep delivered it next day. He said if I needed a loaner until it was fixed he would hook me up. I over tightened a clamp on my Domino a couple of years ago and broke a part, called Festool and they sent it out very quickly for about $8 total. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 Well for the most part I think most would agree Festool customer service is 2nd to none Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 At one time or another, I’ve owned and used every product FT makes… Some are great, some are also-rans and some are duds… I posted a fairly long write-up last year, but I think WTO is now pruning older posts… So I’ll give just some highlights: First of all, I’ll not really address cost… Let’s just assume that FT is at the top-end of the spectrum for non-industrial tools… Drills: Bosch and/or Hilti. The FT CSX is excellent, rest are also-ran… Jigsaws: 300Trion is good, 420EB – jury is still out… Bosch is very good.. SCMS: Kapex is excellent, but it does have more frame and blade deflection. I use it for furniture-grade cuts, but I use a thicker-kerf Forrest blade (which helps) and I’m very careful about flexing the frame… If you’re mostly a 90* and 45* guy, it’s a solid performer… The Bosch offers similar performance for about $400 cheaper… Sanders: 150/3 is excellent. If you get one FT sander, this is it… The 150/5 is OK, rest are also-ran. Ceros are my go-to. To Don’s point, the 3M electrics are worth considering because the fine-orbit Ceros is not available in North American -- I imported mine from the UK… Routers: 2200 is in a class by itself. With the optional accessory kit, it’s a great unit – really great. The rest are also-ran. I use FT for plunge and PCs for fixed-base… Trim Router: excellent – especially with the 0* fence… Unfortunately, you need FT bits to get the most out of the thing… TS55: I like mine a lot. I’ve never used the competition… TS75: too much flex in the frame/blade. I haven’t tried the Forrest blade yet… Domino 500/700: excellent tool – depending on what you build, it’s a game-changer… Rotex: 90 is very useful for DIY. 150 and 125 are not worth looking at… Vacs: CT series are excellent... You can also get some nice options: UDD, Boom-arm, etc. If you only get one FT vac, it should be the 26 or 36... Hope that helps… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 I think brush motor sanders are on their way out and will be a thing of the past. Mirka and 3M are getting closer to their air sander counterparts than any of the others. Once the popularity rises the prices should fall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 Festool has a brushless they recently released in Europe. Should be in the U.S.at some point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Festool has a brushless they recently released in Europe. Should be in the U.S.at some point They need to bring that to the U.S. Real soon. Hopefully one day they will quit this crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 They will never quit that crap. They need a market test before investing in import/export levies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Maybe I missed it but what's the point of it only working when hooked up to dust extraction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 I think it avoids you not knowing that your DC kicked off or disconnected. Might matter on a remodel install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Frankly, I'm not too sure I'd want something like that.. First off, if that sensor goes bad, the sander is down and not usable. Secondly, if you want to run without DC, you can't. Think of the CA glue trick where you need some dust to mix with the glue.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 I think it avoids you not knowing that your DC kicked off or disconnected. Might matter on a remodel install. I can see that being helpful and also a terrible hassle for quick touch ups or something by having to go get you shop vac out. Also what happens if you leave your shop vac elsewhere or it dies on you. Almost forces you to run out right away and buy a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 You can turn off the sensor and operate it without collection. Honestly I did something yesterday that made me fee like a total noob. I hooked up my ETS 150/3 to power and put on the paper. Connected my hose to the vacuum and forgot to hook it to the sander. I was sanding for about 3 minutes before I realized how much of a dumbass I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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