Moving from hand tools to power tools, need advice


cabinfever

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I would imagine that most people start their woodworking journey differently, but here is my story, and what I need some advice on. I'll try to not drone on about everything and be straight to the point. I'll be 40 this coming year, and I have two young kids under the age of 5. Our house is filled with Ikea, I'd love to change that. I have a basement I want to finish as well, but I don't think a Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane is gonna get me there.

 

Sometime around 1998:

I had always wanted to do woodworking, early on I bought some tools like a Porter-Cable 690 router and a biscuit joiner (still have these). I did some rough projects with dimensional lumber. Planes? Why use those, you just sand everything right?

 

Sometime around 2010:

The years pass and I don't do any meaningful woodworking. My grandfather passes who enjoyed woodworking and I decide I'm going to get back into it. I discover Christopher Schwarz and decide hand tools work for my small area in the basement and I read the Anarchists Tool Chest and I follow the blogs. I buy tons of tools and books I have no business buying (Maybe I should learn how to make a chair first before I learn how to make one from a tree).

 

A couple years ago:

I buy a Grizzly bandsaw because ripping boards by hand is hard work. I pickup a used Powermatic 1150 drill press and a Jet mini lathe and get into turning.

 

Last year:

Last fall I decided it was rough processing of stock that was holding me back, so I bought a Jet JJP-12. It's the one tool purchase I really love, this thing is awesome. So I've discovered the hard and expensive way that I want to head down the power tool path.

 

My power tools now:

I have a Powermatic 1150 drill press (gold, early 80s), Jet JJP-12HH jointer/planer, Jet 1221VS lathe, Grizzly G0555LX bandsaw, Harbor Freight 2HP DC with Thein baffle and Wynn filter. I have more cordless drills than I need. I have a fixed Porter Cable router, and a Freud Plunge router (from my grandpa), and some cheap basic bits.

 

Need advice about:

Yesterday I listed many of my Schwarz inspired purchases on ebay. Blue Spruce, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas... the money will go towards a table saw. Right now I'm thinking either Grizzly 690, or Ridgid R4512 + Festool TS55.

 

I'm thinking of joining the WW guild, but I don't know if I'm setup or ready for it. I haven't done any joinery with power tools really. I want to get a table saw, and probably a router table?

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Table saw - I'm happy with my Grizzly 1023RLWX.  Many here have the Grizzly 690 and are happy. It's on sale now at Grizzly.com

The JJP12 is a beast - congrats...you'll always look at it and smile and say to yourself "good purchase"

Now I go to meddling....why sell all of the hand tools now?  You are still finding your way in the woodworking world as to what you want and like - we all are to varying degrees because we all evolve in each of our individual journeys - but there was obviously something inside of you that caused you to gravitate toward the hand tools and you bought a good amount of nice tools....why did you do that?  Wasn't a bad move...I think a good one but 'why' could be a good question to answer to yourself?  Sometimes we launch out and say "I'm going to do THIS....." and we buy all sorts of tools that we think we want and will need for the new-found passion. Problem is, the passion subsides and we're left with a lot of stuff we really don't need (or don't think we'll need) - that may be you now OR are you pendulum swinging to 'go the power tool route' and you're making an executive decision to abandon 'the hand tool route'?  I ask because most of us here would be described as 'hybrid woodworkers' who use a little of both types of tools.  It's getting more unusual in my opinion to see a guy go all hand tools like Roy Underhill. It's kind of a cut it with the table saw and hit it with the hand plane to remove the saw marks.  Long story short, you may sell all of your hand tools now, but I believe you'll re-buy at least 1/3-1/2 of them along your journey.  If money is tight and you need to sell, I completely understand.....if it is not, maybe get your table saw, get another 10 projects down the road and reassess?

Welcome to the forum!  We're just a little 'round the world family' here.  No bad questions, no rock throwing.  I think I speak for many when I say we'll support you in whatever decision you make because it's a fun path we're on and we all rely on the collective knowledge of the group so as Baloo the Bear so poetically said, "Relax........fall apart in my back yard". 

Good life lesson!

Tim

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The Grizzly 690 is not even close to the same class as the ridgid. The ridgid is more typical for folks on a tight budget who need to get into the world of power tools. What is going to drive the difference here? 

 

And by the way, the grizzly is superior to the ridgid in every single possible way. The most obvious would be the trunions (full cabinet saw cast iron on the grizzly, pot metal and tiny things on the ridgid) and the fact that the ridgid is going to use sheet metal side tables whereas the grizzly is cast iron. 

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Now I go to meddling....why sell all of the hand tools now?

 

The motivation is to fund the table saw purchase. I still have many hand tools, I'm getting out of joinery with hand tools. I still have vintage Stanley planes, and a few new planes I'll hold on too. Vintage hand saws I want to keep. I just don't want to do joinery by hand going forward.

 

 

The Grizzly 690 is not even close to the same class as the ridgid. The ridgid is more typical for folks on a tight budget who need to get into the world of power tools. What is going to drive the difference here? 

 

And by the way, the grizzly is superior to the ridgid in every single possible way. The most obvious would be the trunions (full cabinet saw cast iron on the grizzly, pot metal and tiny things on the ridgid) and the fact that the ridgid is going to use sheet metal side tables whereas the grizzly is cast iron. 

 

Thanks, I kind of figured it would be that way... thanks!

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The Guild is a great resource and an enormous value.  All those tools won't do you any good without some knowledge of what to do with them.  I always recommend beginners start with the Shaker table.  It's an easy build that requires a small amount of lumber, but contains a lot of fundamental joinery basics.  Plus tapered legs, a beveled top, fitting a drawer, and more.  And as usual, Marc holds your hand from beginning to end, covering board selection and rough milling to surface prep and finishing.  And he offers multiple techniques for many of the tasks, both with hand and power tools.

 

You'll find out what tools you're missing as soon as you start building. :)

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One thing worth noting is that marc has recommended owning a router plane on a few occasions.  You may want to cancel your auction for yours to see if you end up using it.  It'd be a shame to take a loss on it and then end up buying it again anyway.

 

I can't find the specific video where i remember (or think i do) that he suggests having a router plane as your first plane, but here are a few other links that are relevant.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0V0W9aMDf4

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/planes-for-the-beginner/

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/63-gadget-station-pt-6/ (near minute 16)

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There's also a handful of pages in his Hybrid Woodworking book that are dedicated to the router plane and how it can be useful in a power tool workflow.  Since you seem to be straddling the line between power and hand tools, it may be a good idea to check out the book.  Here's a link to the amazon page so you can check out the summary and some reviews.

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1440329605

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One thing worth noting is that marc has recommended owning a router plane on a few occasions. 

 

I did keep my small router plane, I guess I thought I wouldn't need the large one for dados etc... but after seeing Marc's video on "Cleaning Dados with a Router Plane", I think I'm wrong on that. Thank you for the advice, I did cancel that auction!

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The Guild is a great resource and an enormous value.  All those tools won't do you any good without some knowledge of what to do with them.  I always recommend beginners start with the Shaker table.  It's an easy build that requires a small amount of lumber, but contains a lot of fundamental joinery basics.  Plus tapered legs, a beveled top, fitting a drawer, and more.  And as usual, Marc holds your hand from beginning to end, covering board selection and rough milling to surface prep and finishing.  And he offers multiple techniques for many of the tasks, both with hand and power tools.

 

You'll find out what tools you're missing as soon as you start building. :)

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Eric, the guild is a great for beginners to learn and the Shaker table in particular is a very approachable project that teaches many things. The resulting table can be used anywhere and looks great. Once you have a tablesaw along with jointer/planer you'll be able to dimension your wood. The rest is joinery and there are always multiple ways of doing it and Marc is great at explaining options.

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The only 2 planes I use are my LN rabetting block plane and my LN shoulder plan.  My LN low angle jack and smoothers collect dust.  I do my milling by machine and my festool sanders do a great job and never tear out.  You might the jack and smoothers on the market place soon.  I don't think I have used either in a year. 

 

What do you use your shoulder plane for? Cleaning up tenons? Fine tuning other joinery?

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Personally, I think you should keep all those hand tools and add the power tools to the collection to have a nice well rounded shop.

 

I would assume at some point you'll want to hand cut your own dovetails so, that marking gauge and knife would come in very handy.

 

My point is that most of those hand tools have a place in a power tool shop.

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Personally, I think you should keep all those hand tools and add the power tools to the collection to have a nice well rounded shop.

 

I would assume at some point you'll want to hand cut your own dovetails so, that marking gauge and knife would come in very handy.

 

My point is that most of those hand tools have a place in a power tool shop.

 

Yep and I still have many hand tools. I just am moving away from the idea of dedicated hand tools only. I have two wooden mallets, plenty of chisels, some old and some new. I have Stanley #4, #5, #6 and #7 planes. I'll be keeping my Lie-Nielsen low-angle block plane and my Veritas small and large router plane. And I just decided to keep my Lie-Nielsen large shoulder plane as well.

 

I don't need Blue Spruce mallets or panel gauges, the hand tools I have now work fine. And the money I get will go towards a table saw, which will bring alot of capability to my small shop.

 

I'm thinking I'll be able to afford picking up the Steel City 35990C, which I can get shipped to store from Home Depot or Lowes. Looks like it has alot of cast iron, cabinet mounted trunnions and an integrated mobile base, which is nice because my shop is very small... it's about an 8' by 17' space.

 

I'll keep an eye on used as well, but it's tough to find features like a riving knife, left tilt and dust collection in a used saw. And much of the used stuff is too big for my shop. A Powermatic 66 with 52" rip capacity would take up half the shop.

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Maybe this will come as a surprise to some but hopefully not as I haven't exactly been quite about my views on the subject.  I was so glad to read this post because all we seem to hear about is people like me going the other ways (powered to hand-powered).  I know a lot of people who have jumped into the hand tool world with both feet who end up either regretting it in the worst case, or getting frustrated.  Its hard work and definitely isn't for everybody.  Its not a skill thing because we all can learn that part, but rather a very personal thing.  Call it journey vs destination in the simplest case.  There is definitely a cult of hand tools going around and I hate to see anyone buying in to the romance only to discover they want to go another way.  I hate to think  how many people have left woodworking out of frustration because of this.

 

I guess moderation is good for everything and this is why the whole "hybrid" thing will always win out in the end.  I can feel and hear that frustration in your post Cabinfever and I feel for you.  I'm glad you are sticking with us and recognizing your method of work rather than abandoning this lovely craft.  

 

Anyway, join the Guild if you do NOTHING else.  Certainly I'm biased since Marc is a good friend, but his style of teaching and comprehensive film making is the best out there.  You just can't beat it and I have looked at a lot online and in brick and mortar schools.  With your current set of tools you can do a lot.  I would focus on what to build and understanding the skills to get there before you start acquiring more tools.  Think about the path you just left and realize there are just as many pitfalls on the power tool side of things.  Marc does a great job of showing how to do things many ways regardless of your tooling.  

 

Good luck and keep building 

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Maybe this will come as a surprise to some but hopefully not as I haven't exactly been quite about my views on the subject.  I was so glad to read this post because all we seem to hear about is people like me going the other ways (powered to hand-powered).  I know a lot of people who have jumped into the hand tool world with both feet who end up either regretting it in the worst case, or getting frustrated.  Its hard work and definitely isn't for everybody.  Its not a skill thing because we all can learn that part, but rather a very personal thing.  Call it journey vs destination in the simplest case.  There is definitely a cult of hand tools going around and I hate to see anyone buying in to the romance only to discover they want to go another way.  I hate to think  how many people have left woodworking out of frustration because of this.

 

I guess moderation is good for everything and this is why the whole "hybrid" thing will always win out in the end.  I can feel and hear that frustration in your post Cabinfever and I feel for you.  I'm glad you are sticking with us and recognizing your method of work rather than abandoning this lovely craft.  

 

Anyway, join the Guild if you do NOTHING else.  Certainly I'm biased since Marc is a good friend, but his style of teaching and comprehensive film making is the best out there.  You just can't beat it and I have looked at a lot online and in brick and mortar schools.  With your current set of tools you can do a lot.  I would focus on what to build and understanding the skills to get there before you start acquiring more tools.  Think about the path you just left and realize there are just as many pitfalls on the power tool side of things.  Marc does a great job of showing how to do things many ways regardless of your tooling.  

 

Good luck and keep building 

 

The Wood Talk podcast keeps me interested in it (seriously). I'm looking forward to moving to a "hybrid" approach. I think I will find alot of enjoyment in it. Thanks for your comments! I just signed up for the WW guild, looking forward to it :)

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