bushwacked Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Well as some know I am going to be building a dinner table after some help from you guys here on the forum. I am going to pick up ~65 board feet on Monday when I am off and hopefully get it all milled too. I allowed for 20% contingency as well. Is that about right? So far ... I am going to be using 8/4 hard maple for everything, table and bench. I may switch it up with the aprons for an accent I am not sure though. If I do that it would most likely be mahogany aprons. I was also the thinking if I do accent aprons I should do an inlay through the seat of the bench with that color as well to tie it together. Thoughts on that? So questions as of now ... 1) does my estimate of 65BF look about right? 2) are bread boards a must to help with wood movement and keeping it looking pretty? 3) is my bench height good for having 11" clearance between bench and apron? 4) I don't have a domino and this seems like a ton of M&T joints. Are M&T joints still the best route? Maybe dowels for some joints? Pocket screws are not allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'd have to figure the math on the 65BF but, that'll get you going! Breadboards are only needed if you don't wish to see the end grain on the table. It is a lot of M&Ts but, it's the right way in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I have learned to take a list of large part sizes with me to pick lumber, sometimes you have to recalculate based on available plank sizes. There may not be a width or length that works. So you might need to buy a few more narrow boards or a few less wider pieces. You might find a nice board but it's 14' long. I take a flashlight and a calculator with me. I usually add 30% as a rough estimate. Glad to see you are tackling this job ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 The legs on both the bench and table are 3 x 3. Is that 3" x 3" and there are four ea. of them? Or are they solid slabs of wood that are 3" thick and 3' wide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'd have to figure the math on the 65BF but, that'll get you going! Breadboards are only needed if you don't wish to see the end grain on the table. It is a lot of M&Ts but, it's the right way in my opinion. Ok not sure if I will mind seeing end grain or not. I guess I will have to think about that one. Well I want to do it right so I guess I better get up on my M&T joinery. I have learned to take a list of large part sizes with me to pick lumber, sometimes you have to recalculate based on available plank sizes. There may not be a width or length that works. So you might need to buy a few more narrow boards or a few less wider pieces. You might find a nice board but it's 14' long. I take a flashlight and a calculator with me. I usually add 30% as a rough estimate. Glad to see you are tackling this job ! Thanks for the heads up. Although sadly I can't look at the wood before hand. I give my order at the front desk and give them the around about widths I am looking for and they go find. Not the greatest setup by far but if I go to the other lumber place to get wood in Dallas I pay about $2 more a BF. I have heard they actually buy some of their stock from the main lumber yard that you don't get to look at. You can look it over before you drive off but then they will go back by themselves and grab another board if you don't like it. I am excited for the task as well. The legs on both the bench and table are 3 x 3. Is that 3" x 3" and there are four ea. of them? Or are they solid slabs of wood that are 3" thick and 3' wide? They are just 3"x3" thick and wide .. not a solid slab. I will glue some stock together for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 I looked at your drawing...... It's very confusing... 60" on the front..... 50" on the back?.....30" on one side..... 28" on the other. Is this one table, or 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 The amount of waste will depend upon the lumber you have access to. If you take an accurate cut list with you and you can find boards that fit well into that list, then you won't have much waste. If you need a bunch of 4' boards but can only find seven footers... M&T will be the ideal joints for a piece of that size. Domino XL would be second best, IMO. The M&T will take some time, but it'll be good practice and well worth it for the overall quality of the piece in the long run. I agree with Kev about the breadboards...if you're using 8/4 stock they would be for aesthetics only. If you were using 5/4 or thinner you would need them. 8/4 should stay flat as long as it's allowed to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechwood Chip Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 I looked at your drawing...... It's very confusing... 60" on the front..... 50" on the back?.....30" on one side..... 28" on the other. Is this one table, or 3? It's two... well, one table and one bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 BW, I thinknyou are on the right track. The only thing that catches my eye is the width of the apron, at 2". Against a 3" leg, I think that will look a bit anemic, even though it is probably strong enough. Appearance is a matter of personal opinion, though, so don't argue with the missus over it if she prefers the thinner apron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 8/4 top will do just fine without breadboards. If you make clean cuts and sand through all the grits end grain looks good to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 I looked at your drawing...... It's very confusing... 60" on the front..... 50" on the back?.....30" on one side..... 28" on the other. Is this one table, or 3? My bad hand writing. It says bench .. Not backThe amount of waste will depend upon the lumber you have access to. If you take an accurate cut list with you and you can find boards that fit well into that list, then you won't have much waste. If you need a bunch of 4' boards but can only find seven footers... M&T will be the ideal joints for a piece of that size. Domino XL would be second best, IMO. The M&T will take some time, but it'll be good practice and well worth it for the overall quality of the piece in the long run. I agree with Kev about the breadboards...if you're using 8/4 stock they would be for aesthetics only. If you were using 5/4 or thinner you would need them. 8/4 should stay flat as long as it's allowed to move. I think M&T is what I will use for the aprons into the legs. Ya I am going to have to think out the cuts I can get off each board to limit the waste. I think I'll make my cut list tomorrow to get an idea. It's two... well, one table and one bench. This ... BW, I thinknyou are on the right track. The only thing that catches my eye is the width of the apron, at 2". Against a 3" leg, I think that will look a bit anemic, even though it is probably strong enough. Appearance is a matter of personal opinion, though, so don't argue with the missus over it if she prefers the thinner apron! What would you think for the apron width? I was trying to make sure I didn't cut off leg room. 8/4 top will do just fine without breadboards. If you make clean cuts and sand through all the grits end grain looks good to me. Good to know. I will definitely be going through all the grits. 80,120,180 and I think 220 as well or is that overkill? Going to do my best for clean cuts so we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 8/4 top will do just fine without breadboards. If you make clean cuts and sand through all the grits end grain looks good to me. I agree. Well polished grain is another aspect of woods natural beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Most of the time I'll stop at 180 on open-pored woods like walnut, oak, mahogany, etc. For closed-pored woods like maple I'll usually go up to 220, and I'll sand end grain up to 320 or higher, depending on species and whether or not I'm worried about color change after finish. Usually I'm not. If I were staining a piece I'd probably take the end grain up pretty high so it didn't soak up a ton of stain and get super dark and weird looking. With clear finishes I let the end grain do what it wants to do. I'm also an end grain fan. I see no reason to hide it most of the time. I think breadboards look nice on a lot of designs, but not because it hides the end grain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Most of the time I'll stop at 180 on open-pored woods like walnut, oak, mahogany, etc. For closed-pored woods like maple I'll usually go up to 220, and I'll sand end grain up to 320 or higher, depending on species and whether or not I'm worried about color change after finish. Usually I'm not. If I were staining a piece I'd probably take the end grain up pretty high so it didn't soak up a ton of stain and get super dark and weird looking. With clear finishes I let the end grain do what it wants to do. I'm also an end grain fan. I see no reason to hide it most of the time. I think breadboards look nice on a lot of designs, but not because it hides the end grain. Agree with Eric!! I usually take end grain at least to the next grit regardless of the wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Eric, why does the open pore/closed pore determine how far you take the sandpaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 The open-pored woods just seem to look "good 'nuff" at lower grits. It can't have anything to do with density because white oak is pretty hard stuff. I think it's because the open pores distract the eye enough that the already hard-to-see imperfections left at lower grits are basically obscured by the coarser grain. Tighter grained woods are less forgiving and it seems like going one or two extra grits higher matches their finer texture better. There's nothing scientific about any of that. It's just my observations. I bet Trip has a Harvard study about it on file somewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Thanks for the thoughts Eric that will give me an idea once I get to that section on how to attack it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 What would you think for the apron width? I was trying to make sure I didn't cut off leg room. I'd probably go with at least 4", maybe 5. A standard dining chair seat is about 18" off the ground, and I see your bench will be about 17". Even adding a generous 8" for the "thickness" of the lower thigh near the knee (insert joke here) leaves plenty of room for a wider apron. I went through this recently when I was doing a dining table build. I ended up going to a furniture store with a tape measure and testing out how high my knees were off the ground and how much leg room I would need, etc. (They didn't like me at the store haha). I'm a big guy, about 6'3 225, so I figured if I can fit then the average person can fit. I'd recommend you do the same - try out some real life tables. I agree with the person above who said 2" apron is probably going to look a bit too small. Finally, it sounds like you've already decided on M&T, but let me add my recommendation as well. Like someone above said, it's great practice. Also, it's a fairly simple joint that can be done well with just a router and table saw. My very first real project had eight mortise and tenon joints, all I had was a router and jobsite table saw, and the joints came out mostly flawless. Took me a while to get everything set up, but it was great experience and the table was/is rock solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 I just grabbed a few measurements off of our dining table...it's a Pier 1 veneered junker but it has bulky elements similar to the one you're planning to build. Legs are 3.5" square at the aprons, tapering down to 2.75". Floor to bottom of aprons: 25-5/8" Aprons: 2-7/8" Top thickness: 1-3/8" Floor to chair seat: 18-1/8" Which leaves only 7.5" leg room. Seems like not much, but it's comfortable and plenty roomy. It's a nice looking table. Too bad it's made out of cardboard and boiled horse parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 I'd probably go with at least 4", maybe 5. A standard dining chair seat is about 18" off the ground, and I see your bench will be about 17". Even adding a generous 8" for the "thickness" of the lower thigh near the knee (insert joke here) leaves plenty of room for a wider apron. I went through this recently when I was doing a dining table build. I ended up going to a furniture store with a tape measure and testing out how high my knees were off the ground and how much leg room I would need, etc. (They didn't like me at the store haha). I'm a big guy, about 6'3 225, so I figured if I can fit then the average person can fit. I'd recommend you do the same - try out some real life tables. I agree with the person above who said 2" apron is probably going to look a bit too small. Finally, it sounds like you've already decided on M&T, but let me add my recommendation as well. Like someone above said, it's great practice. Also, it's a fairly simple joint that can be done well with just a router and table saw. My very first real project had eight mortise and tenon joints, all I had was a router and jobsite table saw, and the joints came out mostly flawless. Took me a while to get everything set up, but it was great experience and the table was/is rock solid. Thanks for the tips. I think I will make my way over to a furniture store before I start building those to get a feel for it. Yep I will be making my M&T with a table saw and router as well. Don't have a dado stack so I hopefully won't sand and clean the tenons up too much and screw up the joint haha. I guess lots of test fitting will be in order on each one. I just grabbed a few measurements off of our dining table...it's a Pier 1 veneered junker but it has bulky elements similar to the one you're planning to build. Legs are 3.5" square at the aprons, tapering down to 2.75". Floor to bottom of aprons: 25-5/8" Aprons: 2-7/8" Top thickness: 1-3/8" Floor to chair seat: 18-1/8" Which leaves only 7.5" leg room. Seems like not much, but it's comfortable and plenty roomy. It's a nice looking table. Too bad it's made out of cardboard and boiled horse parts. Thanks for measuring that for me Eric I appreciate it! I am not sure at the moment what size the apron will be but for the sake of practicing making a cut list I went with 3" apron to match the legs. Here is my cut list does that seem about the right way to make one?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomwolf Posted December 24, 2014 Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 For sanding, unless you are dealing with crazy tearout or similar, you should be good to start at 120. Also, I would highly recommend making a finishing 'story stick'* for a project of this size/importance, you might find that you get the finish you want before you hit *Sand a offcut board through the grits, leaving a patch of each of said grits. Then apply the stain and topcoat you wish to apply. You'll be able see how the surface looks and feels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 For sanding, unless you are dealing with crazy tearout or similar, you should be good to start at 120. Also, I would highly recommend making a finishing 'story stick'* for a project of this size/importance, you might find that you get the finish you want before you hit *Sand a offcut board through the grits, leaving a patch of each of said grits. Then apply the stain and topcoat you wish to apply. You'll be able see how the surface looks and feels. That is a good idea ... Never thought about doing it for all the grits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted December 24, 2014 Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 Bushwhacked, I'll go along with the others and say the aprons will probably look good a little wider than the leg is thick. Sounds like even 4 or 5 inches still leaves plenty of leg room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 Bushwhacked, I'll go along with the others and say the aprons will probably look good a little wider than the leg is thick. Sounds like even 4 or 5 inches still leaves plenty of leg room. Ok. I just n Ed to get to a store and measure real life sizes then make a template for it to check the sizes once I think I know the apron size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 And it begins ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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