How I hate S2/S3S


Jerry_in_SD

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My favorite, and only reasonable hardwood supplier only sells S3S lumber. I need 1" stock so buy 5/4 which comes in exactly at 1". I milled to length and width a couple days ago and two critical pieces turned into pretzels. No opportunity to mill flat. I would be forced to buy 6/4 just to end up with what I need.

I'm tired of creating expensive firewood...

Anyone know where you can buy rough sawn lumber in San Diego (that isn't Frost)?

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I’d call around to your local cabinet shops, stair builders, etc… Two things, well maybe three…

 

Find out where they order from – hardwood, secondary, sheet goods, supplies

 

Find out if you can add to their next order to leverage their pricing

 

Ask if you can pick through their scrap pile – one guy’s scrap and all that… Offer to pay...

 

BTW, they may have stock they just want to sell...

 

One other point, it’s good to build relationships… Surface large table tops, plane really big stock, etc…

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It's a love/hate for me.  If I'm wanting thicker boards for some reason then it sucks to only have surfaced material available.  But usually I prefer surfaced because you can see exactly what you're getting.  There's nothing worse than milling a rough board and finding out it's butt ugly.  Money down the toilet.

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I like being able to see the board with stuff that is surfaced.  I just took a piece of rough walnut that I had purchased a while back and planed it down only to find that a majority of it was sapwood.

 

What I dont like is that my lumberyard offers two basic thicknesses.  

1.  4/4 S3S, but it's actually 25/32 on the rack.  Just barely over 3/4".  And S3S doesn't mean flat and square, meaning I'm still running everything through the planer and am lucky to end up with 3/4" when its all said and done

2.  8/4 S3S, which actually comes out to 1 3/4" on the rack.  

 

Top all that off they measure it out as 4/4 and 8/4 for pricing purposes.  So for a 12" long and 12" wide piece of lumber, I'm paying for 100% and getting 75%.

 

Now I'm not sure how their prices stack up..i.e. am I getting rough cut prices for S3S stock?  Its irritating none the less.

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You pay extra for the surfacing because of the labor and machine wear.  You can buy rough for cheaper, but it's a craps shoot how a board looks.

 

The reason that some smaller dealers carry mostly S3S is because many "hobbyists" (read: DIY know-nothings) don't have a jointer or a planer, so rough does them no good.  And a lot of contractors don't want to waste their time milling and often they won't care if a board is a little bowed...they'll just throw a few more nails and construction adhesive at it and call it good.

 

My dealer has both...the S3S outsells the rough by at least three times more.

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How thick is your dealer's S3S?  4/4 = 4/4?  or 4/4 = 3/4?

 

I guess this is my point:

 

My impression is that most lumber yards lumber is at or above the thickness they say it is.  i.e. 4/4 is actually 1" or a bit more whether rough or already surfaced.  My lumber yard is happy to sell surfaced lumber, but it is so thin off the rack that by the time I get it milled I'm lucky if I'm not at 5/8" thick.

 

I'd much much much rather that their S3S boards are 1" on the rack and I pay a bit more.  Would let me either do more with 4/4 stock, or waste less wood by purchasing 1 3/4" and resawing.

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How thick is your dealer's S3S?  4/4 = 4/4?  or 4/4 = 3/4?

 

I guess this is my point:

 

My impression is that most lumber yards lumber is at or above the thickness they say it is.  i.e. 4/4 is actually 1" or a bit more whether rough or already surfaced.  My lumber yard is happy to sell surfaced lumber, but it is so thin off the rack that by the time I get it milled I'm lucky if I'm not at 5/8" thick.

 

I'd much much much rather that their S3S boards are 1" on the rack and I pay a bit more.  Would let me either do more with 4/4 stock, or waste less wood by purchasing 1 3/4" and resawing.

 

That's just not how it works.  You're thinking about it backwards.  The mills are doing you a service by surfacing the lumber and you're paying for that service.  If you don't wanna pay for that service, buy rough lumber and deal with losing a portion of your stock to the ugly factor.  If you don't like what your local dealer offers, try another dealer or go to a mill.  The problem with mills is that most of them are hit or miss, and you never know how dry the stock is.  My dealer has stacks and stacks of clear, flat boards, and they've all been kiln dried to 8%.  They're ready to go, and I'm happy to pay a little more for the convenience.  And what I lose paying for S3S, I gain back in the end since I don't have to toss one out of four boards on the burn pile because they're too ugly to do anything with.  If you're not picky about what your boards look like, or you're super frugal, rough is definitely the way to go.

 

4/4 rough is a full inch thick.  4/4 skip-planed is 15/16".  4/4 S3S is usually 13/16".  If you follow Mike's advice and cut your boards to length before you mill...and pick fairly straight boards at the yard to start with...it's pretty rare that you lose a ton of material getting back to flat.  I rarely have a problem getting a full 3/4" out of an S3S board.  And how often do you have to be exactly 3/4" anyway?  I can't remember the last time that I had to hit a certain thickness dead nuts or it would make or break a project.

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You pay extra for the surfacing because of the labor and machine wear. You can buy rough for cheaper, but it's a craps shoot how a board looks.

The reason that some smaller dealers carry mostly S3S is because many "hobbyists" (read: DIY know-nothings) don't have a jointer or a planer, so rough does them no good. And a lot of contractors don't want to waste their time milling and often they won't care if a board is a little bowed...they'll just throw a few more nails and construction adhesive at it and call it good.

My dealer has both...the S3S outsells the rough by at least three times more.

Wasn't it the fine woodworking guys that made a video on going to the lumber yard? He brought a plane to check the board look. Not sure how often you can get away with that though. Since I'm sure if they allowed that you would have a ton of idiots just planing every board acting like they know what they are looking for.

On a side note. How much of an up charge is the S3S over rough at you place?

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==>not picky about what your boards look like, or you're super frugal, rough is definitely the way to go

An exception is the specialty mill… I don’t know how these survived the bad economy in most places, so YMMV. Over the years, I dealt with but several Mom&Pop micro mills in Eastern Pennsylvania specializing in Pennsylvania Black Cherry – it’s all they do… Note: there are guys doing Hard Maple, SQWO, Cypress, etc.  I normally purchase between 2K and 3K bf rough and they deliver by box truck… Because they are a specialty sawyer, my scrap rate isn’t all that much higher than S2S. I pay by grade, I want 90/10, so I pay a bit more, but it’s still $1bf lower than my local S2S pricing… Certainly I end-up with a crap board or two, but my chances receiving ‘winner’ stock (spalted, curly, pillowed, etc) also increase…

 

Unfortunately, many of the Mom&Pop mills closed with the economic downturn. Because these actually are Mom&Pop operations, I’m not sure if ‘closed’ is really just ‘not taking orders’ –vs- ‘closed and sold our mill’… Maybe now that things are looking up, they’ll open-up again… If you’ve got that big ‘outdoor dining set’ on the Honey-do list and need 1Kbf in QSWO, Cypress, Red Cedar, etc than looking at specialty mills could save you a lot of time/effort/$$.

 

 

==>plane to check the board look

Good luck with that... I've yet to enter a yard/mill where that sort of thing would be tolerated... Maybe if you’re from a magazine, you get an all-access backstage press pass, but that’s not for the proles.

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==>plane to check the board look

Good luck with that... I've yet to enter a yard/mill where that sort of thing would be tolerated... Maybe if you’re from a magazine, you get an all-access backstage press pass, but that’s not for the proles.

Yep that's what I was thinking when I saw the episode and then turned it off and haven't watched one since from them.

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I asked a guy at my local lumberyard about using a small black plane to check a board.  He very nicely and politely said no, but in a way that made it very clear.  I don't blame him - the last thing they need is a bunch of old scrapes all over a board, and then someone wanting a discount because of all the "damage".

 

I've seen it recommended to bring a wire brush instead to brush off any surface dirt etc. 

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Yeah I think we debated mill lumber vs. yard lumber in another thread... i don't remember the outcome other than I was right and you were wrong :)

 

Personally, my greatest joy in woodworking is sending a rough board through the planer and seeing what comes out the other side.  Its like christmas morning or the third date with a new girl....  

 

Unless what comes out the other end is a lump of coal or a locked bra. <_<

 

I've had some fantastic surprises, some as expected, and some real duds pop out of the planer.  I'd say about an equal mix.  I'd rather pick the cream of the crop at the yard and save the surprises for everyone else.  But just like everything else, it's a matter of what floats your wooden boat.  Ugly boards are worthless to me...I'm not capable of compromising on a piece I'm gonna spend so many hours building.  If I wasn't happy with a piece of wood but used it anyway, I'd hate that project from start to finish.  But that's me.

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Here in Ottawa, our supplier KJP Hardwoods sells almost all its lumber as S2S at the full stated dimensions. They cater very much to the hobby woodworking crowd and small shops. You can sort through their piles in their nice heated, large indoor location to your heart's content. The downside - cost, we pay more for the board foot than the prices I see being discussed in most other places.

 

However as a hobby woodworker, I much prefer to spend a bit more on the wood and know exactly what I'm getting and knowing I can mill it to exactly the size I need than to end up with boards that are ugly or unusable. Perhaps the overall cost averages out. Even if it doesn't I still don't mind the lumber cost as I spend way, way more on tools than on lumber.

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That's just not how it works.  You're thinking about it backwards.  The mills are doing you a service by surfacing the lumber and you're paying for that service.  If you don't wanna pay for that service, buy rough lumber and deal with losing a portion of your stock to the ugly factor.  If you don't like what your local dealer offers, try another dealer or go to a mill.  The problem with mills is that most of them are hit or miss, and you never know how dry the stock is.  My dealer has stacks and stacks of clear, flat boards, and they've all been kiln dried to 8%.  They're ready to go, and I'm happy to pay a little more for the convenience.  And what I lose paying for S3S, I gain back in the end since I don't have to toss one out of four boards on the burn pile because they're too ugly to do anything with.  If you're not picky about what your boards look like, or you're super frugal, rough is definitely the way to go.

 

4/4 rough is a full inch thick.  4/4 skip-planed is 15/16".  4/4 S3S is usually 13/16".  If you follow Mike's advice and cut your boards to length before you mill...and pick fairly straight boards at the yard to start with...it's pretty rare that you lose a ton of material getting back to flat.  I rarely have a problem getting a full 3/4" out of an S3S board.  And how often do you have to be exactly 3/4" anyway?  I can't remember the last time that I had to hit a certain thickness dead nuts or it would make or break a project.

Last point is very good. I could mill my 5/4 stock to 7/8" because for what I was doing, it wouldn't matter. I'll do that with the replacement stick I bought (African mahogany) and save myself some self-imposed grief....

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"If I wasn't happy with a piece of wood but used it anyway, I'd hate that project from start to finish.  But that's me."

 

 

he says while uncontrollably rocking front to rear staring off into space… LOL

Hey, dont laugh, Bill Gates is on that spectrum too..... (Sorry for the multiple periods but it's hard to type rocking back and forth in my chair...................))

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That's just not how it works.  You're thinking about it backwards.  The mills are doing you a service by surfacing the lumber and you're paying for that service.  If you don't wanna pay for that service, buy rough lumber and deal with losing a portion of your stock to the ugly factor.  If you don't like what your local dealer offers, try another dealer or go to a mill.  The problem with mills is that most of them are hit or miss, and you never know how dry the stock is.  My dealer has stacks and stacks of clear, flat boards, and they've all been kiln dried to 8%.  They're ready to go, and I'm happy to pay a little more for the convenience.  And what I lose paying for S3S, I gain back in the end since I don't have to toss one out of four boards on the burn pile because they're too ugly to do anything with.  If you're not picky about what your boards look like, or you're super frugal, rough is definitely the way to go.

 

4/4 rough is a full inch thick.  4/4 skip-planed is 15/16".  4/4 S3S is usually 13/16".  If you follow Mike's advice and cut your boards to length before you mill...and pick fairly straight boards at the yard to start with...it's pretty rare that you lose a ton of material getting back to flat.  I rarely have a problem getting a full 3/4" out of an S3S board.  And how often do you have to be exactly 3/4" anyway?  I can't remember the last time that I had to hit a certain thickness dead nuts or it would make or break a project.

 

Fair enough.  Most of my post is likely from ignorance of what other lumberyards do.  I just really got into woodworking a year or so ago, and there is all of one lumber yard within several hours drive that sells furniture quality hardwood (most everything is construction lumber).  I was under the impression from other posts, and (stupidly) from TV WW shows, that most lumber retailers S3S 4/4 lumber is actually 1" thick after they have surfaced it.  I guess I'm wrong on that.

 

FWIW, my yard rarely has any non-milled lumber.  Its 99% milled, and sometimes there is an odd stack of rough lumber there for whatever reason.  I'd love to find variety in that, but that basically means driving from Vegas to SoCal, Phoenix or Utah.  I've researched, but haven't found any local mills...likely because there aren't any trees around here worth milling.

 

I do a fair amount of frames, and it would help if the lumber I could get at the yard was a bit thicker than the 25/32" I get.  After putting a profile on it and cutting a rabbit for the glazing/mat/pic/backing board; it tends to cut it pretty close.  Most of the rest of the time I dont care if I'm at 3/4 or short of that by a few 1/16ths.

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Ever since Cut and Dried Hardwood in Solana Beach closed, it's been difficult.  There is a place in Carlsbad that has some nice stuff, but they are a little expensive.  I found a yard in LA that delivered, and they gave me a great deal on Sassafras.  Try a search on Woodfinder.com and it will come up...

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Ever since Cut and Dried Hardwood in Solana Beach closed, it's been difficult. There is a place in Carlsbad that has some nice stuff, but they are a little expensive. I found a yard in LA that delivered, and they gave me a great deal on Sassafras. Try a search on Woodfinder.com and it will come up...

Yes, I have to make a trip to Tropical Hardwood in Carlsbad to pick up some Gabon Ebony - rumor I heard was that after the Gibson Guitar raid, the guitar manufacturers were buying a lot of the exotics supply like Ebony making it hard to find.

Seems like a lot of the best stock is up north. William Ng has a nice inventory of rough lumber. Lots of cabinet shops in and around William's Anaheim location. I would be tempted to make a run up there to stock up if I had more storage space.

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