thekingdom Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Okay, so I'm about to finish a modernize "old school stereo console". All air dried black walnut. I want opinions on the best natural finish. I hate the "plastic" finish look. I have been told that a tung oil/MS finish will give me the best "pop" of the grain and a very nice finish. Should I use a TO/MS finish or add some spar varnish? Also, i have been told to start with a 25/75 TO/MS mix and work up to a 75/25 TO/MS mix. Should I do this or just go with 40-40-20 TO/MS/spar??? any suggestions are welcome. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Trip was schooling me on some TO fundamentals a few weeks ago. There's way too much ground to cover to give you a short answer. Let's start with...what kind of TO are you planning to use? And you say you don't want the plastic look but then say you're planning to topcoat with spar varnish? Why spar varnish anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekingdom Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Spar had been suggested to me. Not really a fan. I have Hope's 100% Tung Oil. If I can use just TO/MS I will go with that. Any suggestions/advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm going to say it before Eric gets a chance. Use Arm-R-Seal and don't worry about the hassle of mixing or top coat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 A first coat of 25/75 will give you the color and look, second coat maybe improves a little, wouldn't waste time past that. Top coat with a wiping varnish after the oil has cured, arm r seal is one a lot of the guys here use. Don't use spar varnish ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 In for learning since I will be here soon with my table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 The big draw of the TO is the beautiful, natural look that it gives the wood. Putting a topcoat over it defeats the whole purpose. If it's a piece that will experience very little use, try the TO...by itself. Research it...there's a lot more to know than just wiping on and wiping off. A lot more. I was really surprised how deep the wormhole goes. If, on the other hand, it's a piece that does need protection but you still want a fairly subtle finish, I can't think of a better way to go than a few coats of Arm-R-Seal satin. It will bring out the color and richness in the wood, but it does build a bit of a film, depending on how many coats you use. I still have no idea why people always try to complicate things with a series of different finishes. Pick one and be done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekingdom Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Eric, could you give me direction with that? I want a natural look, and it will not need a lot of protection (outside of being opened to get to the media inside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm still in the research phase myself. I'm gonna post a couple PMs that I had with Trip...feels a little weird but I can't think of a reason he'd care. It's good stuff... "Tung oil is a huge subject… A big part of the problem is the common-use definition of Tung-oil has changed through time… You’ve got to be careful with texts like Flexner, Jewett, etc – most of their books are fifteen to twenty years old at this point… The products they use are not formulated the same way they were… In this day and age, you want a Tung oil that dries in a reasonable length of time (read as 24hrs or less)… There are lots of ways to get oil to dry – I won’t cover them… Life’s too short… The closer you get to pure Tung, the longer the drying time – 72hrs/coat was common in my dad’s day… It could take a month to finish one piece… If a product says, "Pure Tung-oil" you can bet it's not... No one today would wait 72hrs between coats... I use the formulations from Sutherland Welles: http://www.sutherlan...m/original.html… Many argue SW is the ‘best’ because it doesn’t use drying agents. However, some consider it an elitist product that’s grossly over-priced (mostly by talking heads who don’t receive sponserships or free product)… Did I mention it starts at about $115/gal? Why is it expensive? Because it’s mostly sold into high-end finishing shops and they can get away with it… The ‘official’ reason is the mfg process avoids dryers by pre-polymerizing the oil (read as cooking the refined oil in an inert atmosphere) prior to putting it in the can… Remember BLO? In the good old days, BLO was basically Flax oil you boiled on the shop stove prior to mixing with wax and applying the concoction to the wood – you are polymerizing (cooking) the oil to kick-start the drying process (crosslinking the hydrocarbon chains)… Today’s BLO has dryers added to make this happen without a stove and in under a week… Today’s BLO also looks quite different from actually boiling raw flax oil without dryers… Same goes for Tung oils – today, most have dryers added – no one wants to wait three or four days for the stuff to dry. Especially with high-luster finishes, you can see the difference sans dryers – there is a great deal more depth. Have you ever wondered why Arm-R-Seal looks slightly ‘artificial’ (not the right word, but I’ll work on it) – even in gloss? Same reason… Oils dry via crosslinking, it’s how you kick-start the process that makes the difference… Why do I use SW? Spent some time at a finishing emporium and that’s what they used… I must admit – most of my practices were inherited – not really an innovator… SW-To is amazing on old-growth genuine mahogany (the tight-grained stuff that’s getting harder to get), Pennsylvania-Black Cherry and air-dried Walnut… I haven’t used it on much else… Actually, I don’t build in much else… The downsides: no protection whatsoever… It’s great on public-space/formal case pieces, decorative pieces and the like… Decorative Chippendale keeping chest – outstanding… It’s for stuff you want to look good, but not use on a daily basis. The only protection is the paste wax you add two weeks after the last coat of oil has dried… Other big downside – you are so close to the wood that you can’t get away with inexpensive stock… The old saying about all wood looking better with finish is almost true – until you get close to the wood… Most wood looks better with finish that’s a bit like a women’s face powder – hides the little flaws… If you look at DM’s projects, he uses old-growth Honduran with Tung-oil, not African… For African, I’d use something with a resin (Waterlox or Arm-R-Seal) to hide the small flaws… More downsides: Coats... Lots of coats... Lots of very thin coats... I've got Griffin&Howe in town -- Outside of Holland&Holland and Purdy, they are the best in the world at what they do... They put 40 coats of SW on their stocks... I typically need eight on Walnut to get the luster I'm after... One more downside: Cost... Just the basic sealer, high-luster and mid-luster setup is going to cost somewhere north of $150 for quarts... Last problem: technique… You’ve got to be careful about little pools around joinery… It's not like oils with a drying agent (think Arm-R-Seal) that'll kind of dry if you leave it a bit think... The stuff won’t dry and you’ll have a mess… Wipe-on and rigorously wipe off… One upside, SW is a pro-product: they’ve got good literature, videos, etc. Their help line is also excellent… Also, many high-end pro finishing shops use it -- so the question/answer areas of pro websites has info from trusted sources... To get luster without 'high-luster shine', you'll need lots of coats of high-luster, then the last few in medium luster... That's what I do most of the time... "Don’t know anything about LV’s product… I trust what LV carries -- I don’t think I’ve ever purchased a dud from them… Obviously, they don’t make the stuff – its private label from someone. Interesting there’s no online MSDS – that would have told us more… Sealer –I always use it because I was told to always use it… Cooked Tung is pretty thick, so it would have to be thinned… The issue is what to cut it with. One of the reasons sealer versions are becoming more prevalent (besides the obvious revenue motive) is that ‘thinners’ are also formulated differently than the good-old-days… Finish companies worry that you’ll use something called ‘mineral spirits’, but not the ‘mineral spirits’ they intend. Lots of solvent products now contain acetone – why? I forget the actual justification, but acetone has an exemption from the new EPA regs… There are some other solvents that are also exempt, but I forget which… Mfgs are using higher percentages of these exempt solvents in their formulations to comply with FDA mandates. BTW, this is also why many oil/resin finishes are not the same as twenty years ago – they’ve swapped some of the solvents in the formulations… Which is why you’ve got to be careful with texts like Flexner, et al --- the finishes they discuss may have the same name, but that’s about all they have in common… PS, I use the sealer to cut the remaining coats… First two coats are sealer, then 50/50 with full strength product, then full strength for another series of coats… I do steel wool every so often… I kind of go by sheen and feel… It’s usually every few coats – when the surface feels a bit dry/rough, the sheen looks uneven in a raking light, etc… Sorry, I don’t have a ‘schedule’ – I just play it by hand and eye… Low, medium, high is 40, 60, 80 is satin, semi, gloss I do start with high-gloss for the first few coats, then the final sheen for the last few… Again, I do this because I’ve always done this because that’s what I was taught… I’ve never done the side-by-side… When they say ‘protective’ they are referring to the wood fibers sealed with a polymer… Water stains, spilled wine, etc won’t cause the havoc they do on bare wood… After a bunch of coats, there’s a small film, but you’re so close to the wood that you can’t really tell… If I get some time, I’ll shoot some snaps of gunstocks with 40 or 50 coats – even with that, you’re still close to the wood… Forty coats of SW look about as much of a film as one medium-heavy coat of Arm-R-Seal. The coats are applied very thin… It’s easily repairable… I use steel wool on curved pieces and Norton 3x sanding sponges on the flats… DM broke with the 90* dogma ages ago, I’ve only been at it for a year or two… Funny, I disdained steel wool for a decade – I treated it like a “beginner’s training wheels”… Now that I’m doing curved work, steel wool is front and center… How things change… I rarely use sandpaper – I’m just too afraid of sand-through… Norton sponges tend to max-out around 400g. If it’s a piece to be held – like a decorative box, my last pass is usually a 1200g RynoSoft pad... You need some sort of inert gas to store the opened finish… It’s too expensive to let dry in the can… As for the 30 minute –vs- right away: Depends on the ambient temp and %RH… I wipe back when it just starts to lose some of the ‘wet look’. In the winter, that’s usually within five minutes. In the summer, it’s closer to ten --- but the danger is not to wipe too soon (so you need one more coat, who cares?), the danger is leaving it too long and having it go sticky… I suspect DM uses the brush-on/wipe-off method because he’s in California (where it’s dry) and he’s being super careful around his joinery (avoid pooling oil)… When I’ve got little do-dad decorative accents, I also use a brush… I want to get the oil in there and I also wipe almost immediately – fixing sticky goo in a tight crevice is not something I like to spend time on… If it’s really tight, I have a second dry brush handy to go after any pooling that escapes the rag… As for what DM uses -- drop him an eMail... He's always answered mine..." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Wow!! Talk about a personal lesson with Trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekingdom Posted January 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 That was awesome!!! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroDave Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Wow Eric... thanks for sharing that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 That was a trip! Ok, ignorance again, who is Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 That was a trip! Ok, ignorance again, who is Trip TripleH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFatBaron Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 I use tung oil from Real Milk Paint Co (pure, food-grade, takes 3 days to dry if you're lucky) and I'll second almost everything that Eric shared. I got started using tung oil because it's the finish of choice for bokken (wooden training swords) because you do not want a film finish. I specifically use the Real Milk Paint variant lately because I can also use it for cutting boards and toys for my kid without feeling even slightly weird about it. I don't bother with inert gas. I buy the quart "squirt" bottles, which I find extremely convenient because I can mostly push the air out and I use it fast enough to not run into issues with it curing in the bottle on me. The worst issue is definitely the "oops, I left a spot of oil on too long." Not a huge problem for what I build, but I can see it being a huge pain around detailed work. The worst I've done was leave it sitting overnight with a coat of oil - I did that a couple times during the summer, which even in my basement, was warm and dry enough to make a mess. I left something a few weeks ago overnight, and got lucky that it was so cold and humid that I could still wipe off the oil. Normally I wipe after 30-60 minutes. Also, I generally go back 6-12 hours later and give it another wipedown. I've notice sometimes that the wood actually expels a little oil as it cures, and this'll help keep spots from forming. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Dang there's so much knowledge in that post!! SW starting at $115 a gallon? Is it the Festool of finishing products? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arminius Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Lee Valley has three tung oil offerings. They sell a pure tung oil, a polymerized tung oil, and a polymerized tung oil sealer. You can mix the latter two to bring down the high-lustre of polymerized tung oil to something more like the finish of a pure tung oil. I am not sure what polymerization process/additive is used, it is not stated on the can, it might have been on the info sheet. I have used all three on canoe paddles, although I have dropped the pure tung oil for that use. I can get fairly close to the same lustre by mixing the two polymerized, and I have liked the higher lustre look of some anyway. The real clincher though was the drying time - due to the water use, I put seven coats on. I can get that done in a week, whereas with the pure tung it was a stretch to get two coats in a week. On that note, I think well-applied tung oil would be more than tough enough for a stereo cabinet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrolan Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Sometimes I wish I could download Trip's brain, but at the same time I have no idea where I could find that kind of storage capacity. Thanks for sharing Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Great information. I will say this again, finishes are like Japanese joinery, I look at it and understand how it works, just can't figure out how to do it, or at least do it that well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourfone Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 So, resurrecting an old thread . . . I am planning on building a new stereo console cabinet out of walnut veneer plywood. I am going for the midcentury feel and a minimalist approach to looks, materials and cost. The overall dimensions of the box are 72L x 25H x 24D and I plan on using exactly 2 sheets of 3/4 ply for the box, 2 vertical separators and shelves, with a 2 in full floating top and 3 in industrial casters. One 1/4 in ply will be used for 4 sliding doors on 2 tracks, the back, and a record rack section. I don't have a table saw so I will have the lumber yard make the major, important cuts. I don't have joining tools so plan on routing rabbits for the sides and vertical separators and just gluing most of it up,using screws from the bottom, if needed. I haven't decided if I want the raw, ply edge or glue on edge veneers - need to see what the ply edge looks like. So the reason I'm here is to ask about using tung oil on this. It is January in Michigan and I plan on doing this in an un-insulated, somewhat heatable garage. The 'nominal' temperature is about 42°F and using the gas infrared space heater I can get it into the upper 50s. So my first question is whether using tung oil, polymerized or not, is doable at these temperatures. If I put this off until later in spring, it will be a little warmer, but much more humid. Second question is whether I can apply the tung oil BEFORE assembling the cabinet. I would attach the veneer banding and cut all the slabs to size but not cut the rabbits or glue anything. I feel it would be easier to apply the oil, especially on the interior without worrying about pooling in corners or edges. I would do 3-4 coats like this, reserving the final 1-2 after assembly. What do you think about this plan?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourfone Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 Also, the main reason I'm building this is that I can't find any reasonable consoles an acceptable depth to accommodate old school stereo receivers. Most new consoles have an outside depth of only 17 in, which is the depth of my Marantz 2252b itself, if you include the AM antenna in back. I also have a pair of walnut veneer Marantz Imperial 6 speakers that will give the console an extended, linear look when lined up together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 My experience with pure oil finish is limited to boiled linseed, but I can relate to the cold workspace. Be prepared to wait longer between coats. The oil will take longer to cure at low temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 Wait are we talking 100% pure tung oil or Watco tung oil? Pure tung oil I'd just apply it in the garage let it flash off and then bring it in my house. I've used this (https://www.realmilkpaint.com/shop/oils/pure-tung-chinawood/) and they use a citrus solvent and it just smells like oranges and lemons. For the box store tung oil, that stuff is a different story it's full of varnishes and other stuff and won't handle cold temperatures well, 55F or above more than likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourfone Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Chestnut said: Wait are we talking 100% pure tung oil or Watco tung oil? Yes, I am talking about the pure stuff, or at least to 90% pure, not the varnish blends. I know that the tung oil takes longer to cure at normal temperature, and planning to thin the first few coats with mineral spirits anyways. Just wanted to make sure I won't have to wait a weeks between coats! What about oiling before gluing? Good idea or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.