Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm in the process of building a cherry trestle table, and after flattening the top, I have several spots with rather deep tearout. I'd much rather spend my time planing than sanding, so along with a restored Stanley #4 , my #7 and card scrapers, I purchased a Lie Neilson scraper plane. I can take very fine shavings with it but feel like I'll be at it for a very long time at my current rate. My #4 is set up with a 35 degree bevel so should I increase the bevel on that and hit it again with that before finishing up with the scraper plane? What would be a good angle for this type of wood? Or should I try filling in some of the tearout and just clean it up with the scrapers/scraper plane afterwards? Thanks Warren Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Unfortunately this is an issue that should have been addressed before the top was all glued up. This is one reason I put a drum sander into my workflow...right after the planer. I'm assuming your planer blades are dull because cherry isn't usually that uncooperative...unless that's hand plane tearout using a low angle or dull blade. At this point I'd probably look for a cabinet shop and beg them to use one of their sanders...after presenting a gross of donuts as bribery. If you do intend to tackle this by hand, perhaps a toothed blade in a LAJ would be a good place to start. Then finish with high angles to level and smooth. I would recommend a visit to Costco first for a pallet of Wheaties...you'll need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I would not try to plane or sand it down you will loose to much thickness in the table top. I would start going through the scrap pile and find as close as possible match to make a patch. Call it a learning experience and live with the patch vs a thin table top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Flip it over, now the bottom is the top. If you can, not sure if that would work out for you? Heart and sap wood maybe underneath ? Not a hand plane guy, looks like your going across the grain and not going with the grain. Is there a reason? You would think that is the reason for your tear out? -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yeah I was gonna say flip it over too. What does the bottom look like? Also, is it just tearout in a few spots, or throughout? If just a few spots I would maybe try to freehand route a jagged pattern, fill it with black dyed epoxy, and call it a knot or a pitch pocket or something. This is assuming I couldn't gain access to a wide belt sander. Again if it's just a couple of spots you could also just rip the top down, cut out those few 1/4" wide spots, and re-glue. You'd lose some width but probably not much, and you'd lose your grain line matching, but at this point you're looking for the least of a bunch of evils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 There is some sap wood underneath. I did practice on the bottom first with my smoothing and it came out really nice. But the side in the picture has the better overall grain match. The original tear out was from me flattening the panel after glue up and not from my planer. I'll flip it over and post a picture. I think I still have a good amount of thickness in the top with 1 1/8" of thickness. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Another Idea if its to far gone is to beat the shit out of the top to make it look old and used. Done nicely it would look very cool! -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Here's a picture of the bottom side. It's flat already ,just needs a light sanding. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Honestly if it were me I would use the bottom and call it done. That bottom looks beautiful. That being said, you could always experiment with some of the other suggestions on the top, and if the results look crappy you can always fall back on the bottom. If you're set on using the top surface then I would look for a wide belt sander as others have suggested, now that I know the thickness. 1 1/8" is a lot to work with. Even if you have to take a whole 1/8" off, you still have a very solid 1" thick top. But like I said, if it were me I would just use the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Honestly if it were me I would use the bottom and call it done. That bottom looks beautiful. That being said, you could always experiment with some of the other suggestions on the top, and if the results look crappy you can always fall back on the bottom. If you're set on using the top surface then I would look for a wide belt sander as others have suggested, now that I know the thickness. 1 1/8" is a lot to work with. Even if you have to take a whole 1/8" off, you still have a very solid 1" thick top. But like I said, if it were me I would just use the bottom. No argument here, agreed...bottoms do look beautiful! -Ace- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 My only issue with the bottom is the narrow strip of sapwood. If it were mirrored on both sides I'd be more agreeable to flipping sides. I'm planning to use some general finishes poly on the top, so how would you deal with the sapwood. I'm still inclined to use my original orientation, so I do want to pursue my options with the tearout. We have a local place which rents shop space and has a performax 22-44 so that may be my best option if I don't want to galoot my way through my planes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 No argument here, agreed...bottoms do look beautiful! -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Also aside from the angle on my plane iron, could it be my technique.? When I was doing the initial flattening, I planed diagonal to the grain, and when I started smoothing I started to smooth with the grain. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfitz Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 - I'm with PB that patches might be a good idea, as long as there are not too many areas that need patching. Good skill building exercise. It should be pretty straightforward to make a jig for your router to route out an accurate shape/depth patch...or some good chisel work. - Is your #4 smoother a bevel up or down? Changing the angle on a bevel-down smoother won't make much of a difference. If its a bevel-up smoother....I'm almost not surprised you got tearout with a 35 degree bevel (it would be about a 47* attack angle...not quite "high angle"). - If using the bottom was a must, and the sapwood had to go, I'd rip lengthwise to remove that piece of sapwood and then glue it back together - if your design can tolerate a slightly narrower top (looks like maybe 1/2" or so). - Your quickest best bet looks like the local place with the 22-44 sander. And don't plane it again after sanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 - Your quickest best bet looks like the local place with the 22-44 sander. And don't plane it again after sanding Wise words indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Jimerfield Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 hmmm, that tear out on the second photo does not look too deep to me. if you can't find a good drum sander then hit it with a scrapper, feather it out and see how it looks. If it's too deep of a depression, then flip it over. if you have even a 1/2" extra in the width, then cut the sap wood out and glue it back up. if you are not experienced in making patches and want to try then I suggest you practice on scrap first. i've never been satisfied with a patch i've done, and none of them were ever on a table top. i feel your pain. good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 if you are not experienced in making patches and want to try then I suggest you practice on scrap first. i've never been satisfied with a patch i've done, and none of them were ever on a table top. Patches are easy if you do them right. Most want to grab a straight router bit and make the patch with 90 degree walls, that is ugly. You need to create a scarf joint and it will be nearly invisible. We have a lamella patch machine but you can do the same with a biscuit joiner and patients making the patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Are you planning on a dark stain or going natural? Another reason for the tear-out, looks like your working with curly cherry? Hard to tell on my screen. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 My #4 is bevel down. Only bevel up I own is a block plane. I think I'm going to try using my scraper plane over these areas and feather it out. When I get tired of that, I'll purchase the block of shop time $200 for 10 hours and make use of the sander. I'm sure I'll find additional uses for the sander on future projects and it's not something I plan on purchasing with the 19'x19' shop I have. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Hein Posted March 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm going with a natural finish. I'm sure that will be another thread of questions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgreenb Posted March 3, 2015 Report Share Posted March 3, 2015 Sounds like you've got your solution. I like it. Be sure to report back - I'll be curious to see how it turns out. It's a great looking table top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Patches are easy if you do them right. Most want to grab a straight router bit and make the patch with 90 degree walls, that is ugly. You need to create a scarf joint and it will be nearly invisible. We have a lamella patch machine but you can do the same with a biscuit joiner and patients making the patch. Ok, PB, you've stumoed me (again). How is a biscuit joiner used to make a patch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Warren Hein Posted March 4, 2015 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I just ate my wheaties and finished hand smoothing the tearout away. It took a few hours, my #4, #7, scraper plane and regular scrapers. But I got rid of the worst of it and didn't really sacrifice the flatness of the panel. Overall I lost about a sixteenth of an inch which still leaves me with over an inch of thickness. I think the biggest improvement was more frequent sharpening on my blades. Now I need to go have another beer and replace some fluids. Warren Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Ok, PB, you've stumoed me (again). How is a biscuit joiner used to make a patch? PB meant to say Lamello patch machine. Just do a google search. It appears these do end-grain patches and end-grain would look terrible and very noticeable on a table top flat-grain. So yeah, would take a lot of patience to make a flat-grain patch. -Ace- Hoser..............the top is looking great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 PB meant to say Lamello patch machine. Just do a google search. It appears these do end-grain patches and end-grain would look terrible and very noticeable on a table top flat-grain. So yeah, would take a lot of patience to make a flat-grain patch. -Ace- Hoser..............the top is looking great Ya spell checker got me again. But no they will make a patch on either end grain or long grain nearly invisible. To use a biscuit joiner you just plunge into the defect multipal times using a straight edge. Make a patch on the bandsaw. Use scraps or wood that closely matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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