Tube Heater Woes

[websherpa]

I've built a 16 x 38' x 11.5ft ceiling garage extension to ours house (with bedrooms above) and the project has gone along pretty smoothly except I made two mistakes (so this thread is partly advice, partly seeking advice, and partly looking to bitch among those who've been there).

1st Mistake was in soundproofing the garage.

I had the foresight to do resilient channel on the adjoining wall and ceiling, I originally wanted double 5/8 Fire Rated drywall with green glue but I compromised due to the price and general contractor advice. The sound containment is pretty good for a big echoey space, on the adjoining wall (but it's thicker and multiple materials). The ceiling isn't quite as good, it has foamed I-beams and carpet above, but I shouldn't have let the contractor talk me out of putting extra insulation in the hollow space. But that's not the major problem. I completely forgot to consider sound-proofing on the outer wall (although it is 5/8 drywall), no resilient (but pink glass wool insulation) - and there's definitely a significant leak of flanking sound up that wall to the bedrooms above. You can hear a moderate radio, or people talking (but cannot make out the words). By comparison, across the adjoining wall you can hear nothing but distant machinery sounds.

I think I am going to have to add a Layer of drywall with green glue between to that outside wall. That wall has a lot of Windows too. So that doesn't help.

The bigger mistake was with the garage heater. I made a mistake and didn't use the general contractor's gas fitter and hired my own, based on a history of good service, and it's been nothing but problem after disappointment after problem.

Apart from some other stupid mistakes and shoddy work that I've had to have re-worked, he installed a 20' radiant gas tube heater 40 btu. The unit was a Space Ray, and although it's burner unit was bit big and overhead clearance a bit longer than ideal, it started out working well. Except for copious amounts of condensation, or perhaps infiltrted rainwater as the fitter installed the exhaust tube on a slight upward slope to exit (like as done in a high efficiency furnace where there is a condensation drain). It gave good and fairly even heat along its length (concentrated at the burner, of course) the blower was very quiet, it came with extra safety features and idiot lights on the outside.

Well, in addition to the condensation leak, I noticed that the tube connector was installed upside down, the reflectors coupled in the wrong spot, and it start an odd intermittent vibration that I thought seemed related to the reflector. Well then I came in and the heater seemed to be shutting down prematurely and the thermostat going completely blank (it needed to be turned off and on to gain access to the thermostat controls). After a couple more times I called the fitter and started reading it's manual. Among other things I discovered that this particular heater had specific warnings not to install in a residential dwelling. It was ambiguous whether that included inside an attached garage, so I called the manufacturer and they confirmed that it wasn't certified for garage use and that would void my warranty and I also worried that my insurance company might not be impressed if there were a fire in the place.

So I paid extra to have the fitter replace the unit with a more expensive one built locally here in Ontario, Canada called the EZ-DuzzIt which is certified for residential garage use. Well, installed It seemed to me that the unit was of a bit lower quality than the original. And the heating was less even (even more stacked toward the burner unit), and not as quiet - unlike it's brochure (and the one it replaced) it has its sealed fan motor on the outside of the burner unit, and when it shuts down it shuts gas and blower at the same time, as opposed to the first unit that continued running the fan for a bit after the gas was stopped. And even though I had it installed on chain and eye hooks instead of strapping and long wood screws into the I-beams like the previous heater, it rattles even louder and more constantly. I noticed that the fitter installed the tube on a sloped angle up down towards the exhaust venting (which elbows and then down toward the exhaust vent outside. In front of the fitter it dripped condensation from the inside of the exhaust elbow again (the fitter has sealed all the other exhaust joints with red heat silicone. (He said, wire a tin cup under it). And no turnbuckles on the chains for easier levelling like I had asked. And then the icing on the cake, after the fitter left, the same problem of the thermostat shutting down and blanking out the thermostat screen (it's a simple Honeywell unit), and I would have sworn that the unit was shutting down before reaching the set temperature ... But I could be wrong about that.

Anyway it appears to me like the thermostat isn't operating correctly. So apart from the "certified" use, I feel like I've managed to pay an extra $1000 for an inferior unit AND another complaint with the installation. Very frustrating as I couldn't live with the unit rattling away and the uneven heat, I'd rather use my noisey electric construction heater.

So my advice, don't hire any of your own subtrades when using a general contractor .... This could have been HIS problem instead of mine.

So apart from the getting the thermostat replaced and having the fitter change the angle of the tube unit, any adice on how to handle a situation like this? Was paying an extra $1000 for the 40 btu 20 foot straight EZ-Duzzit unit a mistake or have I been taken? (Guess I'll be calling to get the manufacturers pricing on both units tomorrow to make sure.)

Do all radiant tube heaters rattle on and off while burning? Are there tricks to getting them to settle down? And I'm wondering if others have had experience with the EZ-Duzzit unit?

[davewyo]

Aside from the rather loud blower, my tube heater is quiet.

[websherpa]

I hadn't realized until I went back to look at Dave's reply that I wrote a novel.  (I was a bit pissed off when I penned it.)  I've had the gas installer back to fix the issues with the newer EZDUZZIT tube gas heater unit and made him follow the manufacturer's recommendations (and replace the faulty thermostat) and the EZDUZZIT is a lot quieter now (still perhaps not quite as quiet as the Space Ray, but now tolerable).  Good thing too as I was about to toss the whole thing out onto the street.  LOL   I am still miffed that I spent an extra $1000 to have an inferior unit put in just because Space-Ray wouldn't pay the cost to have their unit residentially certified (and that my installer put me through all of this).  But at least the garage is heated and I can hear myself think now.

[websherpa]

Still, I would recommend that, if possible, potential future owners of Radiant Tube Gas Heaters do a lot of research, look for a unit other than an EZDUZZIT (who hides the fact that they have an exterior mounted fan on their unit) that has its enclosed fan motor mounted INSIDE the burner unit, and try to get a satisfaction guarantee from the installer.  Maybe my experience was somewhat isolated and it's RARE that someone would get to experience two such heaters mounted and working in the same garage workshop space over a short A/B type test time period, but I could easily tell the difference in loudness, heating pattern (the EZDUZZIT is more concentrated towards the burner unit than the Space-Ray was) and build quality of the two units.

[websherpa]

OK, I'm back to report that I am really disappointed with the EZ-DUZZIT radiant tube heater unit (Canadian Made). Now I would imagine that most people who install it don't have 11 foot ceilings in their garage, but even though it has the same 40,000 BTU rating as the 40k BTU Space-Ray I started with it is far under powered by comparison.  All the heat is at the burner unit, doesn't heat up as fast, and the exhaust end is hardly radiating, where as the Space Ray unit, although hotter at the burner unit, of course, was significantly hotter along its length and promoted an even heat along the floor and walls.  

 

I ran the Space Ray for a little while during the tail end of our Canadian Winter (and my garage is extra well insulated), and it was comfortable and the heat seemed even as it radiated back from the surroundings.  An infra-red temperature gun confirmed that.

 

The EZ-DUZZIT by comparison doesn't cut it and it's warmer out.  It cycles more often, it's fan is louder, and the heat doesn't feel even (it's much colder a shorter distance from the thermostat).

 

Anyone want to buy a 20 foot straight tube radiant heater by EZ DUZZIT?  It's not worth the money, but I can't really afford to replace it.  I would never recommend it to anyone, there are better units out there (I just have to find one that is rated for a residential garage and isn't U-shaped).

 

I read a few hobbyist recommendations online for the EZ DUZZIT (and not many other units) and I can only think those people were using an older model or using them in much smaller spaces (and my garage fell well within the manufacturers recommended space for such a unit).

[websherpa]

OK, I'm back to report that I am really disappointed with the EZ-DUZZIT radiant tube heater unit (Canadian Made). Now I would imagine that most people who install it don't have 11 foot ceilings in their garage, but even though it has the same 40,000 BTU rating as the 40k BTU Space-Ray I started with it is far under powered by comparison.  All the heat is at the burner unit, doesn't heat up as fast, and the exhaust end is hardly radiating, where as the Space Ray unit, although hotter at the burner unit, of course, was significantly hotter along its length and promoted an even heat along the floor and walls.  

 

I ran the Space Ray for a little while during the tail end of our Canadian Winter (and my garage is extra well insulated), and it was comfortable and the heat seemed even as it radiated back from the surroundings.  An infra-red temperature gun confirmed that.

 

The EZ-DUZZIT by comparison doesn't cut it and it's warmer out.  It cycles more often, it's fan is louder, and the heat doesn't feel even (it's much colder a shorter distance from the thermostat).

 

Anyone want to buy a 20 foot straight tube radiant heater by EZ DUZZIT?  It's not worth the money, but I can't really afford to replace it.  I would never recommend it to anyone, there are better units out there (I just have to find one that is rated for a residential garage and isn't U-shaped).

 

I read a few hobbyist recommendations online for the EZ DUZZIT (and not many other units) and I can only think those people were using an older model or using them in much smaller spaces (and my garage fell well within the manufacturers recommended space for such a unit).

 

P.S. I forgot to mention that it's still burning off shipping oils weeks after first install.  The Space Ray unit stopped smoking an hour or so after it's first use.  (I am not an agent or employed by Space Ray, I simply miss it after having been forced to change it to an EZ DUZZIT unit due to certification for residential garage use.)

[Easy Radiant]

Websherpa, 

I'm Jason, the sales manager at Easy Radiant Works. I was referred to this thread by another customer who has our product, and was concerned as he is quite happy with his heater. I am very sorry to hear about your bad experiences with your installer and our unit. 

First, you should know that your unit, if purchased and installed in 2014, is still fully covered under warranty until 2018. If you are not 100% satisfied with the unit, please call me at 1-800-403-3279 and we will do what we can to make it right.

Regarding the particular issues you listed here - if this unit is functioning correctly, there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to heat your garage. The EZ Duzzit series is routinely installed to great success in garages up to 1000 sq ft, with ceilings as high as 12', even in very cold Northern markets. The mild Southern Ontario climate shouldn't be challenging the system at all. 

As you mentioned that the unit was rattling, I am wondering if the baffle in the unit didn't become misaligned. This can happen as a result of rough handling during transit or installation. If this is the case, it can cause vibration and excessive noise when the unit is operating. It may be that your installer determined this and actually removed the baffle rather than correctly re-seating it - this could also explain why you have such a strong imbalance in heat output from the burner to the exhaust end. The baffle is there to keep back pressure in the system, to slow the exhaust and allow more time for heat to transmit through the tube - if it is removed there is nothing to slow the exhaust, and all of your heat could potentially be vented prior to transferring into the emitter tubes. 

I urge you to contact me at 1-800-403-3279 to discuss your situation. We take customer satisfaction very seriously. Our units last in excess of 25 years. For such a long term investment, it is important that it is correctly installed, functioning well, and that you are satisfied with its performance. I will do whatever I can to make sure that you're happy with your purchase. 

 

[websherpa]

Jason, I appreciate your responding openly in the thread (albeit it's an old one) and I will give you a call tomorrow (I'm located in Waterdown, not too far up the peninsula from you on the Niagara Escarpment).  

I had the very unusual experience of having two similar but different units installed in the same location which would be a rarity, and my space is echoey with multiple insulated windows, finished walls and ceiling and still somewhat barren floor space. The EZ DUZZIT unit can keep the space heated, there is no doubt of that.  It may also be that I and the others who have experienced it are expecting more of an evenly heated air space such as would occur with a Unit Heater with blower fan.

But really it's the culmination of all of the various qualities that drove my declaration of dissatisfaction.  It would be good to have you try to help me even them out to get the best possible performance from this unit before I decide whether to replace it this summer.

I have been meaning to call Easy Radiant Works anyway to clarify a question with regard to the EZ Duzzit exhaust mounting instructions (whether exhaust to the outside should angle UP to the outside - as most gas exhausts do - but which "can" cause condensation back-up, or DOWN to the outside (which would help drain condensation but generally not done that way to avoid flue gas back-up).  Caveat: I am not a gas installer or any sort of pro in that regard.  Handyman extraordinaire, yes. 

The instructions say "Horizontal vent systems shall slope downwards not less than 1/4" (5.5 cm) per foot from the start of the vent system to the vent terminal."   So I would assume that means sloping downward from the end of the radiant tube baffled exhaust end to the exterior exhaust (since the radiant tube itself needs to be mounted level to avoid "walking").   A subsequent certified gas installer (with radiant tube installation experience) was hesitant to say that would be a correct orientation (again since most heated gas exhausts slope upwards).

NOW, the condensation issue with the EZ Duzzit could have a few different causes typical to such systems (although I hadn't thought about a missing baffle). In my case the heater is mounted in the dead middle of a 16' span so it is a right angle and 8 feet to the outside exhaust, and the original installer only used a 4 foot length of B vent.  So perhaps some cold exterior air is condensing on the thinner exhaust pipe between the B vent and the radiant tube, AND the original installer left a slight "v" bend in "supposedly" well caulked exhaust vents (so water is pooling and exiting the B-vent fitting).

In hindsight, I might have chosen to mount it closer to the exterior wall and angled it in to the space to avoid the long run of exhaust piping.  I was just afraid of uneven heating which is partly why I chose to run it straight down the middle of the ceiling.  (I may yet move it, although I had intended to mount other woodworking equipment high and on the exterior side which might prevent that orientation.)

I would gather that is pretty much installer error and I can correct it.  There is another installer issue with regard to the heavy flexible gas connector hose that is possibly causing the burner unit to "turn" on it's radial axis with vibration. 

The other thing that is notable is that there is still a smell of burnt oil (or maybe it is burning red silicone) even a year after the original installation when it is running hard.

I am sure that with your assistance I can get this unit running as well as possible and that my experience was tainted by the difficulties with the original installation.

I do still maintain, that the one-stage Space Ray PTS40 unit that was originally installed appeared to me to be a smarter more advanced design for the burner unit and ultimately quieter with the blower motor mounted "inside" the heater unit housing. It's delayed exhaust fan setting might also assist with reduction of condensation (but I have a feeling that feature is more of a safety for units installed where the intake air is taken from the interior) .   

Why I was told the EZ DUZZIT unit was $1000 more expensive than the Space Ray is something only the original installer could answer (and he may have padded for his time  and delivery cost). The manufacturers won't release much in the way of pricing information to anyone other than a heating contractor, who all have different mark-ups.

Whether the heat distribution differences and resonance vibration rattling I perceive are due to incorrect installation of the EZ DUZZIT unit I can only guess at.  (My best guess is that the rattling IS the interior baffle rattling, because it is not the reflection hood.)

One thing I did learn that may be useful to another woodworker was that the installation of a large slow moving ceiling fan will definitely benefit the heat distribution from the unit (to prevent heat pooling near the ceiling).  It somewhat defeats the purpose of not installing a Unit Heater with a blower (which I did not choose because I do some painting and wanted to minimize airborne saw dust), but at least I can choose when to turn an independent fan on and off.  I am currently using a floor mounted fan to get that air circulation until I decide on the final location of the radiant gas heater, but the distribution of heat is definitely more even once some air circulation is introduced.

 

 

Another novel!  lol 

[enb54]

Hi all, just a quick comment on the radiant heaters and their installation, my experience. I have a "Caribe" 50KBTU infrared heater in my appx 625 sq ft shop which has a concentric intake (5") and exhaust (3") system. I recently discovered that the exhaust had completely rusted through, letting exhaust gases combine with combustion air and subsequently shutting down the heater. In Central Alberta this is a bad thing. After scouring hardware stores and plumbing shops, no one could supply the 3" exhaust until I went to a muffler shop and got 5 feet of 3" exhaust pipe which fit perfectly. The cause of this problem was incorrect installation, the exhaust being tilted upward toward the outlet, which is now tilted downward towards the outlet so that condensate and water can drain out. We bought this house 10 years ago and the place was 4 years old at the time , all the other heating appliances (condensing) use schedule 636 plastic venting and they are vented with the exhaust sloping upward so the condensate drains back to the trap in the appliance. I don't think that is a good idea for a radiant non condensing heater...

I also have an 11 foot ceiling...

Edited May 19, 2021 by enb54
Ceiling

[Chestnut]

8 hours ago, enb54 said:

The cause of this problem was incorrect installation, the exhaust being tilted upward toward the outlet, which is now tilted downward towards the outlet so that condensate and water can drain ou

The water is supposed to drain inward. In winter the condensate can build up externally and cause icing issues. Internally it should slope back to a collection point and then a drain. This technically violates code, I'm not sure how inspections work in Canada but if you go to sell keep it in the back of your mind.

Also beings that it slopes out you will want to regularly check the outlet to make sure that it doesn't ice over. If it gets plugged it can send CO back in to the conditioned space.

[enb54]

Thanks Chestnut, the plumbing code is sometimes confusing, especially when problems crop up, and since I don't have a drain on the exhaust pipe I thought I'd try this method. Also have a 2 car garage about the same size with a unit heater (45KBTU "Big Max") that was installed by my son-in-law who is a licensed plumber/gasfitter, and the exhaust (stainless steel double wall) drains down toward the exit, but the combustion air is from inside the structure. Have had no problems, and our winter got down to -40C (-40F) first week of February this year. We'll keep an eye on it, I was about to replace it with a unit heater, but will wait and see what happens. An additional note is the 3" exhaust pipe from the muffler shop is over twice as thick (wall thickness) as the original, so that may also have been a factor, attached photo is before bird screen or battening down the mounting plate, condensate/water is definitely draining out now...

[enb54]

January 01 2022, hope all are doing well, we've received our 3 shots 2 Pfizer and booster Moderna, but here's a photo of the huge condensate icicle stalagmite (from the ground up) from last week (the neighbour's fence left is 6' high), I could hardly believe this much water came out since freeze-up! I believe I made the correct decision to slope the exhaust pipe downward, since I have no access to an in-shop drain. When it gets a bit higher I'll repost...

 

[enb54]

I'm waiting to see what will happen to the exhaust pipe, like will it be blocked by ice? Since my shop is just out the back door of my house I should be OK for keeping an eye on it, the stalagmite is today within 8 inches of the pipe, and it's about minus 27C (-17F) so when it gets up to the pipe (about 10 feet off the ground) I'll post another photo...

[wtnhighlander]

By that time, you should be able to fell it like a small tree!

[enb54]

Well, I went out today and it was looking like the condensate was falling down and only getting to about 1/4" of the exhaust pipe outlet, will post a photo tomorrow, temp here was averaging about minus 24C...

[enb54]

Will let the youngest grandchild fell the thing, it grew to touch the exhaust pipe overnight, temp here is about -23C (-9.4F). Looks like the pipe exhaust is too hot to let ice cover it, so not too worried about getting monoxided...

[Coop]

Damn! Now that is cool! No, that is damn cold! 

[enb54]

I just got my hands on a copy of the installation manual (CARIBE CGTH30.pdf which covers all models) and it looks like you are supposed to slope the exhaust down toward the outlet termination 1/4" per lineal foot so the manufacturer knew about this all along. Too bad for me, but at least I learned something and had some entertaining photos to share...