Mixing Gel Stain with Penetrating Stain

[MrAngles]

Hi Everybody, I stained my bar with a mix of Minwax Red Mahogany, Jacobean and Ebony penetrating oil stains to get a deep dark reddish brown color. It worked pretty well except for a pretty large section of the bar top, which apparently has a much looser grain and didn't get half as dark as I am hoping for. Now I'm looking at gel stains to get it darker, but the darkest gel stain I can find from Minwax is Walnut, which still isn't quite dark enough to match the rest of the bar.

What happens if I mix some regular ebony stain with the gel stain, will that work? Or should I start looking at other brands for a darker gel stain?

[Gilgaron]

General Finishes has some very dark gel stains... java is the darkest if I recall correctly.

[skiback46]

Was the surface prep/wood different on the top from the rest? If you are wanting to have the top match the rest, I think the first thing to do would be to figure out why the stain acted differently.  I am not familiar with the term "looser" grain, sometimes a picture can help diagnose.  If you used a different wood species or sanded the top to a higher grit that could result in a lighter stain. 

 

Have you tried just applying additional coats of the stain already used?  Why do you want to go with a gel stain?

[MrAngles]

Thanks guys, here are some pictures, keep in mind that with the flash on the camera these aren't exactly what it looks like in real life, but it's good for comparison.

 

 

Here's a good shot of the side, I really like how dark it is. The camera flash makes the red in the stain really stand out, but in person it's almost black.

 

This is the top of the bar with the stain still on it. I let it dry for about 18 hours and it was still tacky. I really liked the way it looked, what I really wanted to do is just let it dry all the way and poly over it, but that didn't sound like a great idea so I did some reasearch and determined that there would be problems with that.

 

THen I applied more stain, waited for it to soften everything up, and wiped everything off so there was just bare wood:

 

Talking about "loose grain" you can kind of see in the last image that the far side of the bar top is darker even than the near side, even within the same piece of plywood, because there is lots of swirly grain in the far section, and all the grain lines are pretty much black. THe wood is all red oak.

[MrAngles]

All surfaces were sanded to 220,although I did spend more time sanding the top to get rid of scratches. All surfaces got three applications of 1/2 red mahogany 1/2 jacobean and a 4th application of 1/2 red mahogany 1/2 ebony. I let each application sit for 15 minutes or longer.

I'm looking into gel stain because I understand that you get dark her because it stays on the surface rather than actually staining into the wood.

[skiback46]

I think the best approach is the one you already took.  I have had stain take 3-4 days to feel dry to the touch and be safe for coating with a film finish.  Especially if it is cool and humid (which is likely in a basement).  When you say you let it sit for 15 minutes, I assume you wiped it dry after that, right?   Each additional coat after the first one will add the dry time, which can be quite a while for oil based.

 

The times I have used gel stain were when I was staining a piece that was lots of vertical pieces (it doesn't drip) and when I was using it like a glaze, on top of a very thin coat of film finish.  I haven't heard that it gets darker.  I have experienced that it will look muddy, and hide some of the grain if you don't wipe if off soon enough.

 

The open grain(early wood) of oak will always stain darker than the closed part(late wood).  Its just the way oil based stains work. When I have colored oak, I use a waterbased dye  then a thin coat of shellac then an oil stain.  The waterbased dye colors the late wood, and then the oil stain darkens the early wood.  I, personally haven't had great luck getting an oil stain to color the denser closed pores of late wood.  Though to use a waterbased dye now would require a ton of sanding, and still may not take well, so that might be a option for the next time.

 

I would probably try applying the stain again, and wiping it really well after the application, so that it feels dry (it will still feel cold, but you shouldn't have any puddles or sheen).  I think that is your best option for keeping the color consistent.  Then if there's a part that looks lighter, adding some stain on that, and kind of blending it back to where its darker.  Then letting it sit for a week before messing with it or adding a top coat.

 

My guess is it is probably okay to mix an oil stain and an oil based gel stain together....it wont have the mayonnaise consistency, it will be more runny, but I don't think the chemistry is too different...that said I have never tried it.  That may be a way to better control where your stain goes, but matching the colors could be pretty difficult, and you will definitely want to wipe off as much as possible or you'll get muddy rag marks.

 

Hope that helps.

[dwacker]

The chance that you over sanded especially the plywood are very good. The veneer on the the plywood is very thin and is glued on so most of its thickness is already sealed by the glue. If you get down even close to that glue you can't  use a penetrating stain and expect good results.

I don't know what to tell you as far as fixing this but for future reference plywood lends itself best to spay stains for this very reason.

[MrAngles]

I think the best approach is the one you already took.  I have had stain take 3-4 days to feel dry to the touch and be safe for coating with a film finish.  Especially if it is cool and humid (which is likely in a basement).  When you say you let it sit for 15 minutes, I assume you wiped it dry after that, right?   Each additional coat after the first one will add the dry time, which can be quite a while for oil based.

 

The times I have used gel stain were when I was staining a piece that was lots of vertical pieces (it doesn't drip) and when I was using it like a glaze, on top of a very thin coat of film finish.  I haven't heard that it gets darker.  I have experienced that it will look muddy, and hide some of the grain if you don't wipe if off soon enough.

 

The open grain(early wood) of oak will always stain darker than the closed part(late wood).  Its just the way oil based stains work. When I have colored oak, I use a waterbased dye  then a thin coat of shellac then an oil stain.  The waterbased dye colors the late wood, and then the oil stain darkens the early wood.  I, personally haven't had great luck getting an oil stain to color the denser closed pores of late wood.  Though to use a waterbased dye now would require a ton of sanding, and still may not take well, so that might be a option for the next time.

 

I would probably try applying the stain again, and wiping it really well after the application, so that it feels dry (it will still feel cold, but you shouldn't have any puddles or sheen).  I think that is your best option for keeping the color consistent.  Then if there's a part that looks lighter, adding some stain on that, and kind of blending it back to where its darker.  Then letting it sit for a week before messing with it or adding a top coat.

 

My guess is it is probably okay to mix an oil stain and an oil based gel stain together....it wont have the mayonnaise consistency, it will be more runny, but I don't think the chemistry is too different...that said I have never tried it.  That may be a way to better control where your stain goes, but matching the colors could be pretty difficult, and you will definitely want to wipe off as much as possible or you'll get muddy rag marks.

 

Hope that helps.

Yes, I wiped it dry after letting it sit for 15+ minutes each time. The biggest problem I'm seeing is that after the first application, the light section really hasn't been taking any additional color/darkness with additional applications, but the areas that have more grain in them continue to get darker. I'm thinking that after three applications that have had no effect that it would help anything to add more of the same. It's a problem I really didn't consider when I did my test pieces and was happy with the way the color turned out.

 

The chance that you over sanded especially the plywood are very good. The veneer on the the plywood is very thin and is glued on so most of its thickness is already sealed by the glue. If you get down even close to that glue you can't  use a penetrating stain and expect good results.

I don't know what to tell you as far as fixing this but for future reference plywood lends itself best to spay stains for this very reason.

Hence my thought of gel stain. If I can't penetrate the wood and actually stain it more than I have, the next step is to put something on the surface to get it darker, right? So I read up about gel stains and found that they are popular because they result in a more consistent color because they don't really stain anything as much as they just paint the surface to look like stain. Sure it will obscure the grain a bit, but the grain is already really prominant in my piece thanks I think to the four applications of penetrating stain. I figured I could apply a gel stain to the entire top, and if the end result doesn't match the sides perfectly I'm not too worried about it because it could be considered a stylistic choice. I got some Minwax gel stain and it isn't dark enough, but maybe the next step is to order some General Finishes Java gel stain and give that a shot.

 

The question that I can't shake though, is if it's not okay to leave penetrating oil stain on the surface of the wood before applying poly, why is it perfectly acceptable to apply poly directly over a film of oil-based gel stain? What's the difference between the two products in that regard?

[dwacker]

 

 

The question that I can't shake though, is if it's not okay to leave penetrating oil stain on the surface of the wood before applying poly, why is it perfectly acceptable to apply poly directly over a film of oil-based gel stain? What's the difference between the two products in that regard?

 

The gel has a binder.

[got wood]

If you're still working on this project I can tell you what I often do if I want the piece to look darker is buy Transtint Aniline dye, Black, and mix it with mineral spirits. Mix it, shake it, whatever it takes to get it mixed really well and then let it sit overnight. The next day mix it again and mix equal parts of your dye mix with your poly. Stir well and use it as a wipe-on finish, thin coats, wipe on wipe off. You're looking for very thin coats and you will probably need 5-6 or more thin coats to start seeing a significent change. You will have to play with the amount of dye you use, adding a little more at a time and keep testing it on a similar wood.

[woodprox]

According to this article, it is possible to mix gel stain with penetrating stain, but it is not recommended. The two types of stains work differently and will not produce the desired results if mixed together. Gel stain is a translucent stain that coats the surface of the wood, while penetrating stain is absorbed into the wood grain. When mixed, the two types of stains will not combine evenly and will not produce a consistent finish.