shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Just cleaned my filter on my oneida v3000 for the first time. I was quite surprised to see how much fine dust made it to the filter. I filled the 40 gallon drum one time and i just did a small sanding job with my supermax thats why i checked it. How efficient are your cyclones? Similar to this I was expecting almost no dust at all but maybe im dillusional. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I learned to dump my dust deputy more often. Now I try to dump it before it's half full. That keeps the filter much cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiback46 Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I have the Oneida Pro1500. I have probably filled the drum 20+ times. I have never seen that much dust in the filter "bin" or even in the filter. I did end up with some shaving & some dust the once or twice I ignored the flashing light, and overfilled the drum. But that was the only time I ever saw anything in the filter clean out. That said I don't have a drum sander. My first guess was the drum was too full when you started sanding. How long is the flex hose between the cyclone, and drum? You may only be able to fill it 80-90%if that flex hose is really short. Or maybe you needed to have more or less blast gates open to get the right velocity for that really fine dust. I would call Oneida and ask them, they are probably a lot better at diagnosing potential problems, and I have found their customer service to be pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>fine dust made it to the filter .... sanding job with my supermax Expected result. The V series is not termed ‘V’ for nothing – it’s a high-end ‘value’ proposition hobby separator. At this point, it’s arguably the best value hobby separator available – but it’s a hobby-market separator... Want to separate more fine dust, get a bigger cyclone – not necessarily a bigger cyclone-based DC, but a bigger cyclonic separator... In other words, not the biggest unit in the V-series, the V5000, which will collect and separate the same dust, but from bigger tools in a bigger shop – but a bigger cyclone: http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=SSX120000&CatId={AF788678-CC99-4A98-A11A-D46574885567} Notice that this is also a 3HP seperator... Notice the design difference – wider (23"), taller (50"), larger bin required (10" discharge), larger filter stack (9" outlet), etc... With this separator, you’d have to run a thousand linear feet across the supermax to get that much dust in the bottom of the filter... If you get a SDG 3HP, this is the seperator you get, but painted yellow... In the good old days, this separator was delivered in 11g galvanized steel and was the design-basis of the small commercial cyclone line – no longer offered... Death, Taxes, Physics – no way around them... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 My drum was almost empty whem i started sanding. I sanded parts to a very simple bed so 4 rails, small headboard amd footboard and 4 legs. I just checked the drum and its about 5-10% full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 This is my setup This is what i sanded. Just a quick temporary bed for my daughter untill i make her actual bed. (Just had another kid and we need the crib, im in a pinch) This is whats inside the bin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Rotate that chute 90* and exhaust out the back of the shop. That's what I do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Rotate that chute 90* and exhaust out the back of the shop. That's what I do. That wont work when its -40 outside. Would be a challenge to heat that return air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 No hobby cyclone is all that great but with that being said that little sander should not overwhelm even the smallest of cyclones especially sanding those little boards. The problem is more likely your ducting. Your nice and close to the cyclone as you should be but your ductwork should never go up. The cyclone should be mounted at the same level as your highest pipe. Secondly it may just be a matter of to many blast gates being CLOSED. If you close off all your blast gates your only drawing on a 4" port which is only 450 cfm. I can't tell what size your duct is but if its 7 or 8 inches then at 450cfm your velocity is next to nothing. If all your ports are 4" then and duct is 7 or 8 inches two ports need to be open on any of the machines to have the cyclone separator do its job. The ports are your air intake without enough air your impeller is just making wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>I just checked the drum and its about 5-10% full. Expected results... The ratio of particulate separated-out -vs not depends on too many factors to cover in a forum thread... Oneida has a beginner’s guide to DC -- it’ll walk you through the basics... They’ll send you a copy for free... At least, they used to... When you digest that, you’ll have a handle on your results... They are expected... But a side note: not overly enamored with your ductwork and it’s ‘routing’ – and I use that term rather loosely... For a run that short, it won't make much difference, but for longer runs... Onwida also has a ductwork design guidebook... take a read and you can improve things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>Rotate that chute 90* and exhaust out the back of the shop. Great -- if you get away with it... Makeup air (along with municipality code) is the issue -- how do you manage it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>Rotate that chute 90* and exhaust out the back of the shop. Great -- if you get away with it... Makeup air (along with municipality code) is the issue -- how do you manage it? It should be vented outside unless you have a blast suppression system. Any time you have a drum or wide belt sander connected to the system code is exterior venting without blast suppression. No local code trumps fire code. Local can only make you collect the fines after they show excess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>Rotate that chute 90* and exhaust out the back of the shop. Great -- if you get away with it... Makeup air (along with municipality code) is the issue -- how do you manage it? I deal with it. If I run the DC for extended periods of time with extremely cold temperatures outside, it does drop the temp in the shop. But if the shop was warm before running the DC, it warms back up in a matter of a few minutes from all the ambient heat coming off the contents of the shop. It will drop ten or twenty degrees in here and return to original temperature within ten or fifteen minutes, literally. It's obviously not ideal, but it's a calculated trade for not having to deal with filters. I'd rather have some minor temp fluctuations than mess with the alternative...and it increases efficiency as a bonus. Not sure I agree with Don that it's a ducting issue...mine is a labyrinth and I barely see any fines blowing out of my exhaust port when I'm using my DS...and I'm only running a 2HP motor on my DC and a Super Dust Deputy cyclone...both inferior to Shane's setup. Oh, and as far as code...I didn't ask...it's my house and unless my neighbors complain, it's none of their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 You could connect it to a 20hp cyclone and if it doesn't get enough take air the cyclone will not seperate. Cyclones work on velocity connecting 4" port machines to larger ducting and closing off all but one blast gate destroys efficiency. The sole purpose of bigger ductwork is to allow more blast gates to be open at one time. If your only going to open one port at a time the the duct needs to be small and of equal size to the machine. Open another blast gate and try it out. Edit: We just went through this in our shop. We have two 10hp torrits both with 18" ducting and the filters were plugging daily. The engineer came out to find that the intake drop gates were closed. One of the guys closed them not knowing theywere there only to provide sufficient flow to the duct. $200 service call to open 8 blast gates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Honestly, I took one look at that ductwork photo and figured there would be enough makeup air... In hobby-shop/DIY efforts, makup air is almost never an issue... Pro shops, or pro-designed ductwork, sure -- but average DIY -- nope... In my setup, I can leave extra gates open or not, doesn't make a diference -- there is just enough leakage in the system to keep everything copacetic... If I get fancy, I can use the mags, but I never bother... There’s always enough makeup air... The only difference is how high the bin is lifted from the ground – I have to leave four open gates to leave the bin earthbound... I usually run with one or two gates open -- the bin suspended about 2" to 4" from the ground... When one edge just touches the ground, then the bin's full with two open gates -- the flasher signals about a minute later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I will give oneida a call and see what they have to say. But what i gather here it is what it is and i have to live with it. I will try opening another blast gate also. Pretty sure last time i spoke to oneida they said one blast gate open at a time was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I will give oneida a call and see what they have to say. But what i gather here it is what it is and i have to live with it. I will try opening another blast gate also. Pretty sure last time i spoke to oneida they said one blast gate open at a time was fine. My home shop does the exact same thing except it doesn't fill the filter it covers my wifes lawn furniture with dust. The simple fix was to just remove the blast gate on the tablesaw so I don't have to remember to keep it open. The drum under has two ports so its the only machine that doesn't cause a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 My home shop does the exact same thing except it doesn't fill the filter it covers my wifes lawn furniture with dust. The simple fix was to just remove the blast gate on the tablesaw so I don't have to remember to keep it open. The drum under has two ports so its the only machine that doesn't cause a problem. Ok i will try with 2 blast gates open. Really hope for better results. If i would have known it would have seperated this terribly i would have stuck with the old two bag system i used to have.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I've read that there should be straight pipe for 4' coming into the cyclone for the best separation. The sharp bend right before the intake creates turbulence which makes it take longer for the dust to be forced to the outside of the cyclone. If you could run the duct along the front edge of that shelf that might work better, or like PB suggested raise the whole thing up. You could experiment with just hooking up the drum sander directly to the cyclone to experiment before reworking your whole duct system to see if it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>what it is and i have to live with it You should raise the cyclone to the same height as the trunk. The V3K is a 7" inlet setup... You should run a 7” pipe from inlet to first drop and use a 7x6x5 wye. That will help – maybe with the sander, certainly with tools further away... Unless you have unusually well sealed ductwork and sealed blast gates, there is almost always enough leaks to provide makeup air. Remember, it's a 6" pipe and 4" is already open -- so it's not going to take all that much leakage to make-up the rest... But that's also part of the bigger problem -- it's a 7" cyclone with a 6" pipe and immediate adjustable 90*. So crack a gate an inch or so – can’t hurt -- well it could hurt... But if you can, address the larger ductwork issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>what it is and i have to live with it You should raise the cyclone to the same height as the trunk. The V3K is a 7" inlet setup... You should run a 7” pipe from inlet to first drop and use a 7x6x5 wye. That will help – maybe with the sander, certainly with tools further away... Unless you have unusually well sealed ductwork and sealed blast gates, there is almost always enough leaks to provide makeup air. Remember, it's a 6" pipe and 4" is already open -- so it's not going to take all that much leakage to make-up the rest... But that's also part of the bigger problem -- it's a 7" cyclone with a 6" pipe and immediate adjustable 90*. So crack a gate an inch or so – can’t hurt -- well it could hurt... But if you can, address the larger ductwork issues... I have last generation v3000 with the 6" outlet. I will do a test later with a second blastgate open. Not sure i am willing to re do the install of the machine and the ducting. Getting this shop together has been a 3 month ordeal with only a few hours a week to spare at best. That will now only decrease even more with a newborn at home....guess i will have to be cleaning the filter regularly for a while.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Dust collectors are not vacuum cleaners. The air speed at the dust source is pretty much non existent as the dust enters the pipe it picks up speed, It hits a junction it slows back down then it starts to pick back up again. When it hits the main trunk it hits the high speed air flowing in the main and takes off like a rocket. In this case it never hits the high speed air in the main trunk so it falls out of suspension. The cyclone needs 3500-4000 fpm to work properly. The 4" hose at the machine can only pull about 450cfm but more likely less because the machine will have baffling to direct the air flow to the duct. The air speed is usually about 250fpm on these small machines right at the port. Unless you get that air moving its not going to seperate. This is what makes hobby level cyclones a pain in the rear. They don't pull enough cfm to power the main trunk so folks are forced to run them like vacuum cleaners rather than cyclone dust collectors. There is a fine line between maintaining velocity without loosing air flow. I would not just assume because your a hobby guy that your system is full of leaks. My home shop has no air leaks what so ever other than what may get past closed blast gate. One advantage pvc has over metal. That said if your cyclone is really underpowered its actually beneficial to run it like a central vacuum and skip all the fancy pipe. Keep everything at 4" this will lessen the fall off at the junctions that exist when going from a small to a larger pipe. If you create a small air leak at the end of your faux main trunk you will still get a boost in air speed that may bring you to the lower of the limits needed for cyclonic separation. I say faux main trunk because its not really a main if its the same size as the drops. If you really want to make a cyclone work like one of the big boys add a blower and the very end of the main trunk. Take a cheap blower like that 2hp harbor freight collector and just let it blow into the main trunk it will boost air speed in the main and the little cyclone will work like its on steroids. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>if your cyclone is really underpowered its actually beneficial to run it like a central vacuum That's an interesting idea... In a small shop with all short runs --- might work if you've got all 4" tools. Wouldn't collect fines, but it would help keep the shop clean... ==>I have last generation v3000 with the 6" outlet. A 6" inlet changes things... I'd find a way to get rid of the elbow... But after that, it's going to be what's it's going to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>if your cyclone is really underpowered its actually beneficial to run it like a central vacuum That's an interesting idea... In a small shop with all short runs --- might work if you've got all 4" tools. Wouldn't collect fines, but it would help keep the shop clean... ==>I have last generation v3000 with the 6" outlet. A 6" inlet changes things... I'd find a way to get rid of the elbow... But after that, it's going to be what's it's going to be... ok. Thanks alot guys. Always appreciate the input and the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 ==>I have last generation v3000 with the 6" outlet. A 6" inlet changes things... I'd find a way to get rid of the elbow... But after that, it's going to be what's it's going to be... With a 6" inlet in the machine design there is no way it moves enough air to be a ducted system. I agree that this changes everything. I doubt it pulls as much air as a 1 1/2 hp bag collector. I would be more inclined to get one of those flex hoses with an adapter and see how it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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