Using raw linseed oil


dausone

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Hello everyone! 

I am a first time poster, long time lurker here and have an interesting problem that I thought I would put out there and see if there are some creative solutions. First off, I understand completely the problems with using refined or raw linseed oil vs. boiled. I do not have access to boiled linseed oil as I am overseas and I also do not have access to japan driers or cobalt driers. I am using an alkyd urethane resin which has some driers in it, and it certainly helps speed up the drying process, but not by much. What do you guys think? Any creative solutions here?

 

P.S. I am using a 1/3 thinner, 1/3 linseed oil, 1/3 urethane blend.

 

Thanks in advance for not chewing me out about giving this a go. Hah.

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Keep it warm, apply the coats thin. and just wait for it to dry. Raw linseed oil can take several days to dry to the touch. Several week to fully cure. The thinner you can apply if the better. And don't rush to recoat. If you recoat too soon, you'll end up with a sticky, gummy surface. So after applying liberally and allowing the oil to soak in for 15-30 minutes, wipe off the excess continually until the surface stops bleeding oil. You may have to come back three or four times to remove excess oil that continues bleeding out. Once it stops bleeding excess oil, let it sit in a warm place for several days. The longer you can let it go between coats the better. A week between coats isn't too much. Apply successive coats in a similar fashion. I.e. as thin as you can, with a long wait between coats.

Without chemical driers or boiling the oil, there's no real good other way to speed up the drying. So just give it the time it needs to dry.

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I think you're inviting a host of problems with that mixture. You'd need a laboratory grade clean room to keep dust from settling in your finish with as long as that will take to dry. In a shop setting I think it would turn into a giant mess. Plus, it's going to take forever to do multiple coats. My suggestion would be to do a coat of just oil, very light as Bob said, and let it dry really well. Then mix your varnish and mineral spirits and topcoat with that. It'll still be easy to apply as a wiping varnish but it will dry much, much faster and I'm sure give you much better results.

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Do you have access to tung oil?  It dries faster than linseed oil.  You need to build up multiple coats to get any protection, and you do need to wait a day or so between coats, but it does work faster than raw linseed oil.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. As Bob said above, you gotta have a ton of patience going this route. Even with the thinner and the urethane, which has some dryers in it, at this rate would take months to fully cure that test piece I did. I dropped the idea altogether for the better.

 

Then as soon as I was about to give up....  

 

.... I opened up a whole new can of worms by coming across metal dryers, an extremely nice quality very long oil alkyd resin (over 70% linseed), a urethane resin, and raw tung oil. Guess what I am about to do here chemistry majors. Wish me luck!

 

RPCV, I am in Vietnam. I found out that Northern Vietnam is a great source for raw tung oil! Score. Big time. I also found out that everything exists here under a different name, obviously, and most of it is not for domestic use but export. But there are ways around it.

 

Mike, you are absolutely right about tung having a much faster drying time than linseed. My tung oil test pieces are coming out fantastic! Will update soon...

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Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. As Bob said above, you gotta have a ton of patience going this route. Even with the thinner and the urethane, which has some dryers in it, at this rate would take months to fully cure that test piece I did. I dropped the idea altogether for the better.

 

Then as soon as I was about to give up....  

 

.... I opened up a whole new can of worms by coming across metal dryers, an extremely nice quality very long oil alkyd resin (over 70% linseed), a urethane resin, and raw tung oil. Guess what I am about to do here chemistry majors. Wish me luck!

 

RPCV, I am in Vietnam. I found out that Northern Vietnam is a great source for raw tung oil! Score. Big time. I also found out that everything exists here under a different name, obviously, and most of it is not for domestic use but export. But there are ways around it.

 

Mike, you are absolutely right about tung having a much faster drying time than linseed. My tung oil test pieces are coming out fantastic! Will update soon...

 

See if you can get a copy of Bob Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishes."  Maybe you can get it in digital format.  He covers these finishes in a good amount of detail and discusses the chemistry of them in an accessible way.  

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See if you can get a copy of Bob Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishes."  Maybe you can get it in digital format.  He covers these finishes in a good amount of detail and discusses the chemistry of them in an accessible way.  

 

Thanks Mike. Will check it out. Forgot to mention I also came across Teak Oil, which is linseed based and thinned way down with turpentine. Has dryers in it so it is manageable mixed in with an off the shelf varnish. Still not there though.

 

Just came back from the chemical market here, yeah, there is a market for everything. Got some dryers and a scale and am gonna attempt my first home made varnish, pretty much from raw materials.

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Thanks Mike. Will check it out. Forgot to mention I also came across Teak Oil, which is linseed based and thinned way down with turpentine. Has dryers in it so it is manageable mixed in with an off the shelf varnish. Still not there though.

 

Just came back from the chemical market here, yeah, there is a market for everything. Got some dryers and a scale and am gonna attempt my first home made varnish, pretty much from raw materials.

Keep us posted, that's pretty interesting. 

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Thanks Mike. Will check it out. Forgot to mention I also came across Teak Oil, which is linseed based and thinned way down with turpentine. Has dryers in it so it is manageable mixed in with an off the shelf varnish. Still not there though.

Just came back from the chemical market here, yeah, there is a market for everything. Got some dryers and a scale and am gonna attempt my first home made varnish, pretty much from raw materials.

I've gotta ask. Why?

For me, when I have exhausted anything commercially made that could fit my need, I switch over into make it myself mode. Is there not a product on the market, created and tested in a lab that suits your needs?

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I've gotta ask. Why?

For me, when I have exhausted anything commercially made that could fit my need, I switch over into make it myself mode. Is there not a product on the market, created and tested in a lab that suits your needs?

 

Hey Brendon, it is a very different landscape here in Vietnam. Getting the nomenclature right is one thing, but a lot of the products one could just walk into a Home Depot and get are not available here. What is available are tons of lacquer and two stage polyurethanes. There are some urethane and poly varnishes but are not good quality. What some woodworkers do here today for finishing are, priming, staining, and two stage poly for top coat. And some folks here dip the wood straight into a vat of lacquer. Yikes. It protects the hell out of the wood for a while then starts to turn yellow and crack and peel. Also, everything has pigment added to it here. Everything. The aesthetics for a dark red wood dominate the market. So unless I want my wood to have that aesthetic, its impossible to get around it. If I created a thinned wipe on varnish I could get a more close to the wood feel but my tests of doing that aren't really getting me closer to what I want. I want a good middle ground, oil / varnish finish that has the benefit of both. An option I considered was going to neighboring Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong and picking up what I need and bringing it back. This is what my friend and his father used to do to get quality oils back in the days when they were restoring antiques. But this seemed daunting and well, not really supporting a local marketplace/ community. So I started hunting. Got in contact with a great chemical company that has been invaluable in getting me access to the right, quality raw materials.

 

I found out that Vietnam is proving ground for the manufacturing of all kinds of varnishes. It is a double edged sword. For the local market, they are manufacturing with the problems I outlined above. For the international market, they are not made commercially available domestically because people won't use them here, aside from myself and maybe a handful of others. So here I am reverse engineering things. It is actually putting me in an interesting place I wouldn't have gone to. The first wipe on varnish test I made last night is amazing. Its made from a very long oil alkyd resin (linseed based), 38% raw tung oil, 20% white spirit, no fillers, no pigments, and all the dryers to support the setup of the resin and added oil. It was workable and dried great. So in short, I may be onto something really really nice that might be difficult to find in any hardware store. Sure its a bit of legwork in the beginning, but in the end, I hope it makes things much easier.

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I think this thread is awesome in how it demonstrates to us poor North Americans ( still the majority of members I think, if only by a narrow margin ) how challenging things can be in other places. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your results, and I hope you feel comfortable sharing the recipes you have & will develop!

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Just noticed I didn't have a location specified so I updated my profile. Thanks wtnhighlander. I pretty much shared the recipe so far above. The very long oil resin that I am working with came with a data sheet that outlined sample percentages of dryers to work from. This is where it gets kind of tricky when you start adding stuff and you definitely need a good scale. Makes me nostalgic for my science days! I can share the final formula once I get it to where I like it. The second coat went on great this morning and is dry to the touch some 5 hours later. A miracle since my first test piece of raw linseed has become a fly catcher.

 

Next week I am also going to be experimenting with adding about 20% urethane alkyd and equally decreasing the tung and very long oil alkyd. In theory this will give me a more protective surface for tabletops while still giving me a nice finish that isn't too hard. The general mix I am using now I would use just for beds and decorative pieces, I'm thinking.

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  • 3 weeks later...

An update on where I am at in case anyone out there is interested in creating a varnish from scratch. What I ended up with are two successful examples of a wiping varnish made from an uncatalyzed raw alkyd resin. The differences in them, as you can see, are the amounts of resin used. Formula 4.1 has a darker amber color and is a bit thicker, goes on very smooth and even, and gives a superb semi-gloss sheen after 3 coats. Formula 3.1 is considerably thinner, dries faster, and is susceptible to streaking if not applied heavy enough. Finish of 3.1 is similar to 4.1 with 4 coats.

The finish already is a world away from the off the shelf varnishes that are available here which is a great achievement.. pat on the back. Now that I have a great wipe on varnish I am happy with, it is time to move into more complicated territory. This week I will be adding a small amount of a soy-urethane to this base formula to increase hardness, for pieces with excessive wear. I will also be experimenting with adding polymerized tung oil to this mix to achieve a much softer oil finish. Hopefully this will give me the options I need to start working. Will keep sharing as long as there is interest.

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Very interesting lesson in chemistry!

I suspect, though, that if one of us here in the USA started collecting the ingredients for such a project, Homeland Security would be on us like buzzards on roadkill.

One thing is certain, I would definitely be on the California Air Resources Board terror list.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Going back full circle, I pulled out the old jug of raw, un-clarified linseed and tung oils. Using the chemical dryers, I successfully created what Stephen Shepherd quotes as "bung hole oil", a chemically induced non heated (boiled) drying oil. The same raw linseed oil that I used previously, successfully dried overnight. Adding the tung + varnish, it looks like I got a pretty sweet finish going.

 

Will update more on the formula soon for those interested.

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Found a great resource for refining raw linseed oil by hand, using water, sand, and salt without the use of chemical dryers or a hot boiling pot of oil.

 

"This is the fastest method [a day or two] for generating a quick-drying oil without an added drier, and leads to a unique set of pre-polymerized oils based on it."

http://www.tadspurgeon.com/pdf/Refining_Linseed_Oil.pdf

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Interesting. I might be a bit concerned about the residual water in the oil, but I think in time it would evaporate. Let us know if you try it and how it turns out.

Hey Bob, in Tad's examples, there is what is seen as a break, where the oil, water and impurities are mixing just below the oil layer. He says that if you leave the mixture to settle, most of that break will settle and separate. I am also guessing that how much residual water is in the final oil depends on how long you let the mixture settle and how good you are at not siphoning off any of that break layer into the final oil, and of course how many washes that you do.  In the process you loose a bit of oil. I'm actually concerned with how much water and other impurities are in the raw oils that I am using but there is no way of telling unless I can give Tad's method a try. I am curious but it seems like a lot of extra work and time for woodworking now that I found dryers.

 

The time consuming part of developing my varnish is that there are no real formulas to follow when adding raw oils into the mix so it is all trial and error. I read that Sam Maloof wasn't too concerned with using raw tung because the dryers in the boiled linseed and varnish were compensating pretty well. But in my experience, any time I add raw tung to my varnish, even a small amount, something is happening and the Alkyd is not getting the dryers it needs to cure. The dryers mixed with the raw components on their own cure well, but when they are all mixed together, it becomes a nightmare. Now I know why these formulas are heavily guarded.

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  • 2 weeks later...

An edit to the above regarding residual water, Tad recommends clarifying the final oil, either in the sun, or in an open container for a period of time for the residual water to evaporate. The result is a crystal clear oil that will not yellow over time and is fast drying. Interesting stuff. I still have not had the time to try it out, but if anyone does, let us know! If this type of oil was sold on the market, it would be crazy expensive btw. Most commercial linseed oils are refined by a process designed for edible oils, they are produced for maximum shelf life, ie. not to oxidize!

 

And for faster results, I was finally able to track down a quality double boiled linseed oil with a manganese dryer added. It has completely changed my working formula. Going through the tests now and will report soon on the final varnish if all goes well this week. Wish I had a lab which would have made my last three month a whole hell of a lot easier. Ah well. Moral of the story, don't give up.

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  • 1 month later...

Well that only took three months! Finally got a perfect finish or at least here in Vietnam anyway. I ended up ditching the very long oil alkyd resin, not completely though. The majority of the formula is a modified alkyd, urethane, that is blended with the very long oil alkyd and double boiled linseed oil to ultimately give the wiping varnish better leveling, a little more flexibility and decent curing time. So now I got what I think is the perfect balance. The major problem I faced here in Vietnam is the weather. The high humidity is just killing almost everything that I put together.. meaning.. it took ages to cure and left the surface feeling tacky. Also one of my biggest issues is the homogenizing of my formulas. Without access to a proper grinder/ mixing machine I had to shake and let the formula come together over a couple days. Mixers aren't cheap but since I am going to start making gallons of this stuff, I needed to invest. Guess I justify all of this by the savings of shipping varnish in and the cost savings of making a varnish from scratch, it is not easy work by any means.

 

I also made a brilliant wax/ oil finish. I am using raw beeswax that I get from a local farmer, this melted with double boiled linseed oil and a tiny amount of silica flattener and the result is a superb top coat finish that gives a satin sheen.

 

Wish I could bring some of this stuff stateside. One day maybe. 

I am happy to share this formula with anyone if interested PM me. I don't think it would be impossible to do something like this in the states. It probably wouldn't be too cost effective though.

 

side note: completely got rid of the tung oil in my formula which I am bummed about. I just couldn't find a reliable and consistent source here in Vietnam. Turns out that no manufacturers in the region use it which adds to the difficulty of having it produced locally.

 

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Edited by dausone
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