Lumber Yard Board Feet Measurements


ResidentEvil

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Ok.  I've been noticing this for quite a while now, and wanted to check with the experts to see if I'm off base before I call my lumber yard.

 

First a question:  The measuring sticks they use at the yard, should they come up with a different board feet measurement than if you measured both width and length with a tape measure?  Outside of normal rounding differences?

 

I've noticed pretty consistently that it seems the employees at the lumber yard are getting a higher BF quantity than my calculations when I'm picking out the lumber.  I can only wonder if those sticks they use to measure the width are working off a different calculation than I'm working with, thus causing the discrepancies that I'm seeing pretty regularly.

 

Here is an example from my trip this morning.  Wenge board that is S3S at 25/32.  Its 5" wide at its widest point and almost exactly 9' long.  So using 4/4 for thickness, that gives me 3.75 board feet.  I have no problem with them rounding up to 4bf.  But they wrote 5bf on the ticket.  For your average cherry or maple board, that's not a huge deal.  But they want $17 a bf for wenge.

 

When the employee left, I pulled out my tape and measured again to make sure I hadn't messed up when I measured the first time.  Nope, I still got 3.75 BF.  I flagged down another employee and asked to re-measure, and his calculation came up with 4.44bf, and he looked at me wondering what the problem was.  I told him that my measurements came out to 3.75BF, and I wouldn't have an issue if the wood wasn't $17 bucks a bf.  So he changed it to 4bf and I went and paid.

 

Is that a function of those measuring sticks they use?  Maybe they round up a 5" wide board to 6" all the time?  My initial thought was to call the lumber yard next week and ask them to describe how they calculate their BF measurements, just to check if its their standard policy to round a 5" board up to 6".  I don't want to be a PITA for them, but I also feel like its not a great business practice to round up so significantly on wood that is so expensive.  Is this SOP for lumber yards?  Is it unreasonable to expect them to measure widths to the exact inch (realizing I'm not buying 1K bf at a time)?  I've noticed that they always charge out to a whole number BF measurement.  Is it unreasonable to expect them to round 3.2 BF up to 3.5 instead of 4BF?

 

I guess the ultimate question I'm asking is whether its standard practice everywhere, or if it is ok for me as the customer to ask them to be a bit more precise; at least in certain scenarios?

 

Sorry for the long winded post.

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Can't speak for all HW dealers out there but, where I buy mine, we measure the piece together and come up with the number.  My dealer usually rounds down for me rather than up but, I'm a pretty regular customer.

 

Be a little careful about calling them out.  If they're the only game in town, it could create a situation you don't want to deal with.  If you have options then, I'd push the issue as they are stealing from you.

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I dont think that they are purposefully trying to bilk me or anything.  I think its a combination of the facts that I'm usually getting smaller orders, where a difference of a couple BF is pretty big overall.  Also that they are trying to get people in and out as fast as possible, leading them to liberally round up.  And having a few new people who just have been taught "Multiply X times Y and divide by Z" without really understanding how the calculation works.

 

I was mainly wondering a little bit about etiquette and whether these types of things are common practice.  They are the only game in town, but between their generally higher prices and these types of situations it wouldn't surprise me if I couldn't get equal prices with a larger selection by going to SoCal or PHX.

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It's important to build a relationship with them.  I know that has saved me money and these types of headaches many times.  If they're off, call them on it politely.  Before long, they'll get to know you as the customer who is going to verify their measurements.

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I can't tell you what standard practice is, but here's how I go about it, generally:

 

The more expensive the stock, the more carefully I count.

If you have more than one board, I use the stick.

If you have only a few expensive boards, I'll use the tape and calculator.

I round to the nearest half board foot with the exception of very expensive exotics, in which case I round to the nearest tenth of a board foot.

 

No, the sticks do not work off a "different calculation"...they measure board feet just like the slow way with tape and calculator.  Trouble is...there's a learning curve with those sticks and you have to do quite a bit of math in your head if you have a pile of boards to count up.  There's also rounding up and rounding down during all that counting.

 

Trouble with that...there are a lot of stupid people out there, which means that they first have to understand how the stick works, and then on top of that they have to be able to do addition and division in their head while customers ask them stupid questions in the middle of their calculations.  It can take some concentration, and I'll assume it's too much for the average pea-brained moron to navigate through on a consistent basis.  So what you end up with...inconsistency.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd go into the yard with a pad of paper, pencil, tape, calculator.  As you pick your boards and stack them up, calculate how many board feet you have of each species, and if the discrepancy at checkout is greater than you can stomach, call them out.  Just be sure YOUR numbers are right before you do that...I've had several ol' boys question my numbers...every time I gave them a tape and a calculator and urged them to count for themselves, and every time - twenty minutes later - I get, "whoops, sorry, you were right."  And I just smile and say, "no worries buddy."  But the look on their face says they feel pretty stupid.  And they are. :D

 

By the way, there was no way that homeboy could come up with 4.44 board feet by looking at a stick...unless his stick had WAY more numbers on it than ours do.  I'm hoping you say he used a calculator to come up with that number, otherwise he was full of you-know-what.

 

If he was using a tape and calculator, consider that he may have measured a different part of the board than you did...lumberyard workers will always measure the fattest part of the board (whenever convenient) since the yard was charged for the fattest part of the board by the mill or distributor.

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I had a similar issue happen with walnut a while back. They overcharged me by like 5 or 6 bf on an order. I took my ticket, measured myself, and told the guy at the cash that I felt the count was off. I also said that I didn't want to be a jerk, so I asked him to come and measures the bf in my loaded vechile. He said no problem, and gave me my calculation without even measuring. 6 bf of walnut is over 60 dollars plus tax (so closer to 73 here), so I felt it was significant.

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I just got back from my nearest dealer for a small run For cutting board stock. 2 pieces of 4/4 cherry, 1 huge padauk board and some 1/2" hard maple. The yard boss, who doesn't know me from Adam calculated with a tape & his iPhone. He calculated the cherry at 7.25 and the padauk at 14.825 wide. Both of these measurements are dead nuts on. I guess mine doesn't round.

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I never ran into anyone using the stick , my lumber guy uses a tape as I do and we both come out right . I would ask them how they go about it just to answer questions you have . By no means would I let them screw me on lumber that cost $17 a BF .   I often sell off my extra stock and when I do so I charge for exactly what guys buy  , its common practice to round off widths  but not by whole numbers . A 5" wide board is sold as a 5" wide board , anything over the 1/2" mark goes to the next inch . So a  5 1/2" wide board move up to 6" .  At least thats how it is here . 

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I always do my own calculation.  I try to make it as accurate as possible...but always in my favor.  If their calculation is within 3% ($15 on a $500 buy), I am happy.  As he is making his calculations, I try to point out any imperfections, and act a little hesitant.  One time, I had 3 BF knocked off of a 90 BF purchase because of a little nick.

 

Do you have an "account" with the lumber yard?  I believe this can sometime sway the calculations in your favor.  One of the first questions I get is "Do you have an account?"  I say yes, give my name,  they look it up, and it seems to go smoothly.  Get on their mailing list and their e-mail list.  Even if you don't buy a lot, they should consider you a regular customer and treat you accordingly.  Repeat business is important to them.

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How does "having an account" work?  Do you still pay (cash or credit card) for each purchase, or do they bill you each month, or what?

 

I always pay by credit card, I do not do monthly or end of month payment. however, I am in their system. I get weekly e-mails, monthly flyers, and an invite to their annual (free) bar b que.  They always ask, and it seems that it goes smooth after I give my name.

 

A lot of retail stores ask for e-mail address etc.  Generally, I don't sign up.  However, I do sign up where I buy my lumber.

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Having an "account" with the HW dealer usually means that they know who you are.  You're not a random one off customer and usually get a little better treatment.  This is part of building a relationship that is very important.  If you want to continue to pay local retail prices then, don't build em.  If you want a break at the register, get to know those folks and ear their respect.

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I can't tell you what standard practice is, but here's how I go about it, generally:

 

The more expensive the stock, the more carefully I count.

If you have more than one board, I use the stick.

If you have only a few expensive boards, I'll use the tape and calculator.

I round to the nearest half board foot with the exception of very expensive exotics, in which case I round to the nearest tenth of a board foot.

 

Thanks for the background on how you do it.  It helps to hear it from the horses mouth (not that I'm calling you a horse :D ). 

 

No, the sticks do not work off a "different calculation"...they measure board feet just like the slow way with tape and calculator.  Trouble is...there's a learning curve with those sticks and you have to do quite a bit of math in your head if you have a pile of boards to count up.  There's also rounding up and rounding down during all that counting.

 

Trouble with that...there are a lot of stupid people out there, which means that they first have to understand how the stick works, and then on top of that they have to be able to do addition and division in their head while customers ask them stupid questions in the middle of their calculations.  It can take some concentration, and I'll assume it's too much for the average pea-brained moron to navigate through on a consistent basis.  So what you end up with...inconsistency.

 

I do think part of the problem is simply that they have some newer guys who have been told how the stick works, but the "how it works" hasn't been explained.  I guess I dont know why they use the sticks anyhow.  They always use a calculator in conjunction with the stick, so my assumption is that they are just using it to determine width.  With a tape measure and my phone calculator (hell, sometimes just doing the math in my head) it takes me about the same time to calculate the BF as they do with the stick.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd go into the yard with a pad of paper, pencil, tape, calculator.  As you pick your boards and stack them up, calculate how many board feet you have of each species, and if the discrepancy at checkout is greater than you can stomach, call them out.  Just be sure YOUR numbers are right before you do that...I've had several ol' boys question my numbers...every time I gave them a tape and a calculator and urged them to count for themselves, and every time - twenty minutes later - I get, "whoops, sorry, you were right."  And I just smile and say, "no worries buddy."  But the look on their face says they feel pretty stupid.  And they are. :D

 

I am certainly going to do that from now on.  I was even thinking about taking a stick of chalk with me to jot down the dimensions and BF on the board.  Its easy enough to wipe off, and I never have them measure a board that I'm not buying anyhow.  I always check the current price for the lumber I need, and handpick the boards I need.  With it pre-calculated by me and written on the board, I think it will likely lead them to be a bit more careful when they measure for me.  

 

 

By the way, there was no way that homeboy could come up with 4.44 board feet by looking at a stick...unless his stick had WAY more numbers on it than ours do.  I'm hoping you say he used a calculator to come up with that number, otherwise he was full of you-know-what.

 

No, he used the stick to measure and then punched it up on the calc.  I didn't see the figures he entered, but he showed me the final result and it was 4.44 and change.  I reverse engineered the numbers and the only way he could have arrived there was if he measured the width at 6".

 

If he was using a tape and calculator, consider that he may have measured a different part of the board than you did...lumberyard workers will always measure the fattest part of the board (whenever convenient) since the yard was charged for the fattest part of the board by the mill or distributor.

 

I also measure at the fattest part of the board, and expect to be charged as if the whole board is the width of the widest part (outside of really odd circumstances).  There was no part of this board that measured over 5", I had to assume that he misread the stick or rounded up to 6" to make the calculation easy for himself.

 

 

 

 

 

I always do my own calculation.  I try to make it as accurate as possible...but always in my favor.  If their calculation is within 3% ($15 on a $500 buy), I am happy.  As he is making his calculations, I try to point out any imperfections, and act a little hesitant.  One time, I had 3 BF knocked off of a 90 BF purchase because of a little nick.

 

Do you have an "account" with the lumber yard?  I believe this can sometime sway the calculations in your favor.  One of the first questions I get is "Do you have an account?"  I say yes, give my name,  they look it up, and it seems to go smoothly.  Get on their mailing list and their e-mail list.  Even if you don't buy a lot, they should consider you a regular customer and treat you accordingly.  Repeat business is important to them.

 

I do have an account with the yard, but am a small customer.  Several hundred a month in purchases at most.  I believe I spent $1400 all last year with the lumber yard.  For others who have asked, its a cash only account so no line of credit.  It basically keeps me from having to give them my information every time, I can store a card # on file with them if I so choose, I get their monthly newsletter, etc.  

 

One of the issues with this is the separation/disconnect between the desk employees and yard employees.  You pick out your lumber, get the yard guy to write it up, then take the ticket to the desk jockey and they charge it out.  The yard hand doesn't know me from adam, doesn't know if I have an account or not.  The desk employees aren't out in the yard to see whether I have a valid point or if I'm just an idiot who can't use a tape measure.  I know the desk people will generally accommodate if I have an issue, they have a couple times in the past.  But having an issue every time I come to the desk isn't really the way I want to build my relationship with them.  

 

Now that I know that extreme rounding up isn't standard procedure everywhere, and that there isn't a different formula used for the sticks, I have a plan going forward.  I'll have accurate calculations of the BF for each stick I buy and they'll know that when they measure it up.  If we have a discrepancy, we can discuss it then and if we can't resolve we can talk to the people behind the desk.  If we can't see eye to eye, I'll start looking for other options, but I really doubt it will come to that.  I have a feeling that they'll recognize me as someone who requests a little more precision over time, and will default to that.

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and insights.  Happy Sunday!

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The yard I have been using for 41 years calculates the bf after the piece comes out of the planer and then they straight line rip one edge. The widest part of the board is a lot wider before that edge got cut straight. They paid for the whole board so why shouldn't you ?

I check the bf calc when I'm picking my wood, if an extra inch in width comes out close to their number I let it slide , if it's over I note it in pencil and they will usually just take my word on the number. My advantage is the current generation (family business)owners only started working there a couple of years before I started buying there. So I've been around longer than most employees.

They don't charge extra for S3S, well I guess it's built into the price,slight discount when I buy rough. They plane 4/4 to 3/4" for the "public" u pick area, 13/16ths for the pros and will run 7/8 skip and miss on request( but you may have to wait a few hours or come back tomorrow. I have been allowed back in the mill to watch. The guy grading the boards only takes a few seconds to make his calculations then he feeds it into the straight line rip saw. It has a big track feeder (like a bulldozer)with rubber pads. Once it grabs the board it tracks pretty true the whole length. It's pretty straight but no where near perfect.

After that edge is removed some tension can be released and the board may move some while its in the stack or back at your shop. Rough sizing parts oversized, letting them relax overnight (at a minimum) then re-milling the stock to final size is a good practice to follow.

5/4 poplar $1.59 a bdft 8/4 was $1.75 on Friday

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As he is making his calculations, I try to point out any imperfections, and act a little hesitant.  One time, I had 3 BF knocked off of a 90 BF purchase because of a little nick.

 

If you have a rapport with the guys at the yard, you might be able to get away with this on occasion.  But I can tell you that the workers see this as one of the more annoying things customers will do.  The yard has to pay full price for boards with defects, so my typical response to this kind of complaint is usually: "If you don't like that board, pick another board."

 

They always use a calculator in conjunction with the stick, so my assumption is that they are just using it to determine width.  With a tape measure and my phone calculator (hell, sometimes just doing the math in my head) it takes me about the same time to calculate the BF as they do with the stick.

 

You have to know the length of the boards to use the stick, so this is probably what they're measuring with the tape.  Then you put the stick across the width of the board and it will tell you the board feet according to the length.  The problem is that the width rarely falls on an exact mark on the stick's scale, which is why you have to round up or down, often after dividing that number in half or in thirds. This is also the reason that if you're buying only one board, the discrepancy might be more pronounced...things tend to even out when you're buying a big stack of boards...as long as the yard worker is able to do math in his head and round up and down in even intervals...that way it averages out to a more precise number.

 

The stick is necessary though.  I guarantee you can't add up a stack of a couple hundred board feet with your tape and calculator as quickly as I can do it with a stick...not even close.  There are times that I'm the only guy working and there's a half-dozen customers in the yard...if I used a tape and calculator to add up all the lumber, they'd be waiting a very long time.

 

All that said, if you just had the one piece of wenge, I would have used a tape and calculator to figure it, and it would have been accurate to 1/10th of a board foot.  If you had a hundred board feet of poplar, there's no way I wouldn't use the stick, but it would still be close...at least within 3-5 bf.  I don't "tip the scales" in favor of either the customer or the yard...I add up the boards and the number is the number...sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

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The way I look at it is they own the boards. If you want to own the boards you have to pay what they want or "you" don't own the boards. If you don't like they way a place does business, go somewhere else. It's the American way.

That's not the American way. We bitch and complain until we get what we want or get told to shut up.

But seriously, the yard has a price. It is x dollars for y volume of the wood you want. Them aggressively rounding up the volume is no different than posting a price but adding $2 to the price when they ring you up. It is their prerogative to chathe what they want, it is your right to choose to accept those terms. I also agree that it is your responsibility to ensure the terms are kept. They will not short themselves. That only leaves one person to be the qc guy.

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I don't think many yards are over-charging intentionally.  They're in business and they want you to come back...and they know if they screw you they're not likely to see you again.  That is unless you're a PITA...then we have nothing to lose. :D

 

I think most of the errors are out of pure laziness or stupidity.  Leave your house and you're bound to bump into an idiot...they're everywhere, even lumberyards.  Keep an accurate tally of your board feet and pick your battles...no point in getting all drama queen over two board feet of poplar.  And frankly you may find you're getting some deals if you get chummy with the staff and don't leave a mess. ;)

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I guess my point is that selling a commodity like lumber by the board foot leaves a lot to interpretation. If every board was perfectly straight and square it would be like paying by the pound. I buy boards, not board feet as I am a hobby wood worker. If I like a board I buy it, if the price is too high I leave it. If I feel I'm getting screwed I don't go back. That goes for any business I deal with.

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I'd be annoyed if the butcher rang up a batch of steaks at 5lbs and they actually only weighed 4. Or if I filled up my car and got charged for 20 gallons of gas and actually only got 15. In both instances the businesses can charge what they want per unit of measurement but if they manipulate the measurement so that I'm charged for more than I'm getting that's fraud, plain and simple.

If the yard is getting a dramatically different number than you then someone is messing up and you absolutely have the right to question that. Don't be a jerk about it and any place that wants to keep your business will work with you to figure it out. If they have a policy where they round up significantly or charge for the BF of the rough board instead of the S3S board then they should be able to tell you that so you can take it into consideration when you compare prices between yards and when you plan on how much lumber to buy for a project.

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The yard I have been using for 41 years calculates the bf after the piece comes out of the planer and then they straight line rip one edge. The widest part of the board is a lot wider before that edge got cut straight. They paid for the whole board so why shouldn't you ?

 

 

Do you really think that they are charging me less for the board after they have milled it than before?  I'm pretty sure that the lumber yard takes what they pay a BF and bumps that price, then they add a standard price for milling.  That that all factors into the final BF cost that I'm charged.  However, if a yard charges per BF of milled lumber but then wants to significantly round up to cover the size that it was pre milling...that is really really really bad business and they wouldn't last very long.

 

 

 

The stick is necessary though.  I guarantee you can't add up a stack of a couple hundred board feet with your tape and calculator as quickly as I can do it with a stick...not even close.  There are times that I'm the only guy working and there's a half-dozen customers in the yard...if I used a tape and calculator to add up all the lumber, they'd be waiting a very long time.

 

All that said, if you just had the one piece of wenge, I would have used a tape and calculator to figure it, and it would have been accurate to 1/10th of a board foot.  If you had a hundred board feet of poplar, there's no way I wouldn't use the stick, but it would still be close...at least within 3-5 bf.  I don't "tip the scales" in favor of either the customer or the yard...I add up the boards and the number is the number...sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

 

Yea, I can see how it would make sense for large orders.  I just dont see how it helps them at all on the scenarios where there are 1-2 sticks of a specific type of lumber.  

The way I look at it is they own the boards. If you want to own the boards you have to pay what they want or "you" don't own the boards. If you don't like they way a place does business, go somewhere else. It's the American way.

 

There are really two types of consumers.  The first kind basically just look at the receipt after they've paid for everything and go "huh".  The second kind look at the cost of their goods, determine when is an appropriate time to negotiate a price and are very alert that they are getting a fair price.  There is nothing wrong with being the first type of consumer.  But your statement is your opinion and in all reality costs you a lot of money in the long run.

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There are really two types of consumers.  The first kind basically just look at the receipt after they've paid for everything and go "huh".  The second kind look at the cost of their goods, determine when is an appropriate time to negotiate a price and are very alert that they are getting a fair price.  There is nothing wrong with being the first type of consumer.  But your statement is your opinion and in all reality costs you a lot of money in the long run.

This is only true when building for yourself or not passing the cost along the chain. I see relationship as key. You support the business with your wallet. Only after a few transactions would I broach "Hey guys, I need to cut cost. I will be loyal if you will work with me." If they won't, trying to force them ruins the relationship and rarely works. It is better in that case to walk away. Fairness in business rarely exists outside of a contract. Relational equity takes investment.

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Eric is very right about not leaving a mess. My grandfather taught me how to pick lumber and he stressed that we had to leave the pile. neater than it was when we got there. I will take an entire stack apart, get the boards I can use and re stack it.

I have seen them stop people who were carelessly flopping the boards around, he griped " what about him" and I heard "he leaves the stack neater than we make it in the first place" . I know my grandfather was proud that day. I was too !

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