cahudson42 Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Recently Shannon extolled brushing with GF water-based 'Enduro-Var'. He seems to like the stuff. Others do as well. Here is my question: I am really, really having a problem seeing that the use of any water-based finish is nothing but a ruination of any piece of furniture. Here is why: In a 'past life' I worked as a chemist-assistant at a research lab for a paint manufacturer in Summit, NJ (hint). Every day, we were trying new formulations of water-based 'latex' paint. The problem was always - always - trying to balance durability against congealing and surface flow out. This is so because - guess what - oil and water do not mix. We were always trying different formulations of 'surfactants' ('soaps') so the oil would emulsify in the water carrier, vs. the (usually) lack of durability caused by the surfactants that would simply re-dissolve when wet. (brush-stroke test - again and again) What has changed with 'Enduro-Var'? Is it not an oil emulsified in water with a surfactant? Is not the surfactant water soluable? Will not the resultant 'dry' finish then be water sensitive? In addition, the MSDS of any water-soluble finish I have looked at usually has a high percentage of acrylic/butyl soft polymers. These are gummy - period. They may try to cross-link them somehow - but they are inherently gummy. Junk for furniture - IMO. Perhaps a 'more-modern' experienced chemist/woodworker can explain why 'Enduro-Var' and its ilk are equal to solvent-based finishes? Until then, I continue to NEVER use a water-based finish on any of my furniture. And when solvent-based finishes are outlawed - I will make my own - from scratch if necessary. Thoughts?? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I use GF high performance poly all the time - excellent product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'm with Pug here.. I've used it a bunch and had fantastic results and durability with it. Maybe I'll lean your way if/when it lets me down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I think waterborne finishes have come a long way, but they are just not there yet. Not there yet being that they will not replace solvent for good. My favorite finish is acrylic lacquer off the gun. The sight and feel of a piece of furniture I made with that stuff on it just gives me a hardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Recently Shannon extolled brushing with GF water-based 'Enduro-Var'. He seems to like the stuff. Others do as well. Here is my question: I am really, really having a problem seeing that the use of any water-based finish is nothing but a ruination of any piece of furniture. Here is why: In a 'past life' I worked as a chemist-assistant at a research lab for a paint manufacturer in Summit, NJ (hint). Every day, we were trying new formulations of water-based 'latex' paint. The problem was always - always - trying to balance durability against congealing and surface flow out. This is so because - guess what - oil and water do not mix. We were always trying different formulations of 'surfactants' ('soaps') so the oil would emulsify in the water carrier, vs. the (usually) lack of durability caused by the surfactants that would simply re-dissolve when wet. (brush-stroke test - again and again) What has changed with 'Enduro-Var'? Is it not an oil emulsified in water with a surfactant? Is not the surfactant water soluable? Will not the resultant 'dry' finish then be water sensitive? In addition, the MSDS of any water-soluble finish I have looked at usually has a high percentage of acrylic/butyl soft polymers. These are gummy - period. They may try to cross-link them somehow - but they are inherently gummy. Junk for furniture - IMO. Perhaps a 'more-modern' experienced chemist/woodworker can explain why 'Enduro-Var' and its ilk are equal to solvent-based finishes? Until then, I continue to NEVER use a water-based finish on any of my furniture. And when solvent-based finishes are outlawed - I will make my own - from scratch if necessary. Thoughts?? Chris Somehow, I never actually saw a question here. Not trying to be a jerk, but this just came off as an antagonistic rant trying to get a reaction. Do most folks generally prefer the look of oil based finishes? Yep, probably. Do they tend to look warmer? Yep, probably. If you're unsure about Enduro-Var, just commit to spending a small amount of money on a quart and try some samples. I use Enduro-Var a lot, and it is anything but gummy. So far, I have noticed no appreciable "ruination" of my pieces... Your mileage, gumminess and ruination may vary, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Modern WB finishes seem to be a different animal than they were even as recently as a few years ago. I only use WB on light colored woods as they don't tend to bring out the character of dark woods like an oil based, but I've not had any issues with them as far as application, durability or appearance. I typically finish all the stuff I make for my girls (2&5) with a WB finish (typically GF) and they beat the living crap out of everything. Dropped, scraped across the floor, hit, spilled on, run into things, etc. and the finish hasn't failed. Sure it dents, but has not cracked, lifted or discolored.. Plus, it's a much faster finishing schedule beginning to end ... Personally I like the stuff, but it has it's place; not necessarily for everything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Chris welcome to the forum. I like Enduro Var and most other GF waterborne finishes. Enduro Var (it is a self crosslinking polyurethane finish) when cured is comparable for durability with Arm R Seal except, like all WB finishes, it raises the grain on first application. A light sanding before the next coat fixes that. I certainly wouldn't say that applying waterborne finishes "is nothing but a ruination of any piece of furniture" as it isn't in my experience. I could see five questions that you raised only one of which I can answer Will not the resultant 'dry' finish then be water sensitive? Have a look at GF Exterior 450 waterborne finish (this is a exterior rated acrylic finish) - it's intended for use outside on furniture/doors etc. I have used this many times even on internal furniture and it is water resistant. Maybe you need to call General Finishes for the other 4 questions or somebody on here may be able to answer (General Finishes have a Facebook page and are very quick to respond). You could also try out a test board, rather than risking a piece of furniture, using a WB finish for yourself. If, of course, you want to stick with oil based finishes that is your prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Frank Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 i dont get this post either. seems like your talking paint and enduro is a finish. go make you own why wait till they outlaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 I don't think waterbase is inherently better or worse than oil, just different. I use GF high performance from time to time and really like it. Most recently I sprayed a coat over acrylic paint and it gave the piece really nice depth and sheen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 The water bourne finish I use is a precatalysed acrylic. They don't usually sell it retail, just to pro shops. There is a post cat version as well. Both by ML Campbell. It's pretty tough stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodger. Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 The water bourne finish I use is a precatalysed acrylic. They don't usually sell it retail, just to pro shops. There is a post cat version as well. Both by ML Campbell. It's pretty tough stuff. Do you use it for most of your work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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