Chicken or the Egg? (New Shop)

[Lee Bussy]

So ... I have some tools and I know I need to make them work better.  Space is a premium (not sure how many people have unlimited space) so the basis for my shop will be a Rigid 4510.  I already own it so please don't tell me it's a bad choice.

 

I have the following wood cutting/shaping power tools as a starting point:

• Rigid 4510 Table Saw
• DeWalt DW715 12" Compound Miter
• Ryobi AP-12 Planer
• Ryobi R161 1-1/2 HP 1/4" Router
• Harbor Freight 8" 5-speed drill press

... maybe a couple other random hand tools like a sander and a jigsaw.  I was thinking this would be a logical order of projects/jigs to make, each building upon the last's capabilities:

• True up table saw
• Table saw sled
• Router table (with maybe a lift if I go crazy)
• Router fence
• Jig saw table
• Better sled?

So, first of all, does that seem like a good progression?  

 

I think once I have a straight saw with a sled, a router table, and maybe a pseudo-table jig saw, I can make nearly anything I'd need/want.  Sure a jointer would be nice - if I go that route I may get a hand jointer and make a table for it.  I could even make the router into a jointer to start with.  The jig saw jig should be good for a while but I may eventually want a band saw.  I know I won't be making any fancy door panels with a 1-1/2 HP router, but maybe that will last me a while. 

 

Does this seem crazy, or is it just so crazy it might work?

[ColinF]

So ... I have some tools and I know I need to make them work better. Space is a premium (not sure how many people have unlimited space) so the basis for my shop will be a Rigid 4510. I already own it so please don't tell me it's a bad choice.

I have the following wood cutting/shaping power tools as a starting point:

• Rigid 4510 Table Saw
• DeWalt DW715 12" Compound Miter
• Ryobi AP-12 Planer
• Ryobi R161 1-1/2 HP 1/4" Router
• Harbor Freight 8" 5-speed drill press

... maybe a couple other random hand tools like a sander and a jigsaw. I was thinking this would be a logical order of projects/jigs to make, each building upon the last's capabilities:

• True up table saw

• Table saw sled

• Router table (with maybe a lift if I go crazy)

• Router fence
• Jig saw table

• Better sled?

So, first of all, does that seem like a good progression?

I think once I have a straight saw with a sled, a router table, and maybe a pseudo-table jig saw, I can make nearly anything I'd need/want. Sure a jointer would be nice - if I go that route I may get a hand jointer and make a table for it. I could even make the router into a jointer to start with. The jig saw jig should be good for a while but I may eventually want a band saw. I know I won't be making any fancy door panels with a 1-1/2 HP router, but maybe that will last me a while.

Does this seem crazy, or is it just so crazy it might work?

there are many people that have accomplished a lot with less. For years my dad had a 10" radial arm saw and a 16" scrollsaw. He got by fine. How often do you envision yourself making doors with your router? I thought the same thing when I got my big 3hp one. I have yet to make a door, but I've used my tiny 1/8" round over bit tons. I think you'll be just fine.

[..Kev]

I'm not completely sure what a jig saw table is but, I would probably save up and buy the bandsaw.

 

Take your time and build the sled right the first time and that will remove the last item on your list

 

Rest of it is all good stuff!

[davestanton]

I found that there were 2 paths I could choose from. Playing around with the gear I had and maximizing its performance which did improve things for me. The other way is if I wanted to be serious about the end result of my projects was to clean slate and buy specific tools that had no compromise. Space does become a factor in this scenario.

Without knowing dimensions of your space and also what it is you have in mind creating it is a bit hard to point you in the right direction.

Personally I enjoy the journey of playing with ideas in my shop and rarely make anything that is used outside of it. That is just how I like it. I spent many years building homes for people so now it is time to enjoy my own space however I please.

[Lee Bussy]

I'm not completely sure what a jig saw table is but, I would probably save up and buy the bandsaw.

Something like this:

 

http://www.stumpynubs.com/jig-saw.html

It will not perform as well as a band saw (or even a scroll saw) but I have the jig saw now and it will fill a need for a while.

 

Take your time and build the sled right the first time and that will remove the last item on your list

In an ideal world I would, but as I look at how some folks have built them I would need to leverage other tools I don't yet have. Even something as simple as cutting a slot would be challenging right now without a way to mount my router or even the jig saw. I can do it and build upon it as I go so that I don't waste wood though.

 

I found that there were 2 paths I could choose from.

 

Great, now I have Stairway to Heaven in my head!

 

Playing around with the gear I had and maximizing its performance which did improve things for me. The other way is if I wanted to be serious about the end result of my projects was to clean slate and buy specific tools that had no compromise. Space does become a factor in this scenario.

 

That's exactly the issue - space. Well that and money but even if I did have the money for the shop you have for instance, space will be an issue. This will be garage work. I have a two car and even though my wife has given up all hope of ever parking inside, I have other things in there.

There's nothing wrong with seeking to buy the best of breed. My grandfather told me (a tool and die maker) that if you buy the best tools available, you will never be sorry you spent the money afterwards. I've never found that advice to be bad.  I have to start somewhere though or else I'll have one very expensive piece of equipment and nothing to finish the job.

 

Without knowing dimensions of your space and also what it is you have in mind creating it is a bit hard to point you in the right direction.

 

I'll have the better part of half a two car garage. I'll be making some crappery, Etsy-ish stuff, and the odd piece of furniture (end tables, coffee tables, etc) for the wife as I have to in order to keep her thinking it was all for her.  Surely that can't be unique.  

 

I'm an IT person but back in the 90's building book I did trim work with a friend to make ends meet.  Back then I thought I could do anything in the world with a table saw, chop saw, trim router with a roundover, and a finish and brad nailer.  I did a lot, but what I want to build now will take a little more than that. 

 

[..Kev]

In an ideal world I would, but as I look at how some folks have built them I would need to leverage other tools I don't yet have. Even something as simple as cutting a slot would be challenging right now without a way to mount my router or even the jig saw. I can do it and build upon it as I go so that I don't waste wood though..

 

 

A table saw and a drill is really all you need to build a good sled.

[Lee Bussy]

A table saw and a drill is really all you need to build a good sled.

Okay maybe I'm misunderstanding. If all I had was a table saw and a drill, how would I do anything other than a three-piece sled with a slot?

Apparently I've been looking at the wrong designs.

[shaneymack]

https://youtu.be/UbG-n--LFgQ

Here is a great design. Tablesaw and drill should suffice.

[..Kev]

Okay maybe I'm misunderstanding. If all I had was a table saw and a drill, how would I do anything other than a three-piece sled with a slot?

Apparently I've been looking at the wrong designs.

 

I'm pretty sure Marc built one as well on the free site.

[Lee Bussy]

https://youtu.be/UbG-n--LFgQ

Here is a great design. Tablesaw and drill should suffice.

"It's over-engineered a little bit". Yeah. He's not kidding. It all looks pretty do-able except for the part where he has a perfectly planed 12-4 piece of maple to do the glue-up. Angle iron maybe?

He also has a router table to do the shaping but that can wait till later, it's just for looks.

I'm pretty sure Marc built one as well on the free site.

Not sure who Marc is - I'm new here.

[..Kev]

Not sure who Marc is - I'm new here.

 

The Woodwisperer, he owns the place..

 

Look here..

 

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/

 

Lots of free videos to look thru.

[Lee Bussy]

The Woodwisperer, he owns the place..

 

 

Aha, thank you.  Hopefully the stuff there won't make me want to sell my tools for scrap metal like Matthias Wandel's projects.    

[Chris H]

LBussy, I think you are on the right path.  A TS sled is nothing more than 3 peices of wood (5 with runners), two of which you want to be careful to square up.  No real engineering needed.  You can get fancy, but the return on your investment in time diminishes significantly beyond the basic functions.  If you have a shop still in it's infancy, I would say, stay basic on the sled, invest time elsewhere.  

 

I own and love my 4510, and several HF tools.  There simply isn't a better value available on some of these.  Better tools, absolutely, but better value, is a tougher sell.  

 

I am a big Stumpy fan, though I preferred his older work.  The newer "newsy" stuff isn't my cup of tea.  Love the shop projects though.  I will say that I did build both the router lift and jig saw table.  I scrapped the router lift (sloppy craftsmanship on my part), and replaced it with a Rockler lift when it went on sale.  I still pull out the jigsaw table on occasion, but I don't get the mileage out of it that I once did.  The bandsaw trumps it in a hurry, but for the cost, it's awesome for intricate cuts where I'd like to keep all my fingers.

 

I would add some kind of mobile table, that is built to match the out feed of your TS (~37").  Yeah, know that one by heart    .  I build all my work surfaces to be interchangeable with the TS.  3"-4" casters (get dual locking, worth the extra $1 a wheel) will make your shop very agile.  I would add a clamp cart to your list too.  I still have mine hanging on the wall, but as the shop has gotten cluttered and my "Assembly space" moves, tripping over stuff trying to get to the clamp wall is getting old.  

[Lee Bussy]

LBussy, I think you are on the right path.  A TS sled is nothing more than 3 peices of wood (5 with runners), two of which you want to be careful to square up.  No real engineering needed.  You can get fancy, but the return on your investment in time diminishes significantly beyond the basic functions.  If you have a shop still in it's infancy, I would say, stay basic on the sled, invest time elsewhere.

Thanks Chris. Nice to know I'm not completely out of bounds.

 

I own and love my 4510, and several HF tools.  There simply isn't a better value available on some of these.  Better tools, absolutely, but better value, is a tougher sell.

"Good" and "good enough" are tough things to quantify. While I can't think of any HF tools I'd go buy right now I will not discount the potential for good values there. I do love my HF trips.

 

I am a big Stumpy fan, though I preferred his older work.  The newer "newsy" stuff isn't my cup of tea.  Love the shop projects though.  I will say that I did build both the router lift and jig saw table.  I scrapped the router lift (sloppy craftsmanship on my part), and replaced it with a Rockler lift when it went on sale.  I still pull out the jigsaw table on occasion, but I don't get the mileage out of it that I once did.  The bandsaw trumps it in a hurry, but for the cost, it's awesome for intricate cuts where I'd like to keep all my fingers.

 

I would LOVE a band saw, but I think there's other things I may need first. For those things where a curved cut is needed, I'm hoping it will be enough to get me by for a little bit.

 

I would add some kind of mobile table, that is built to match the out feed of your TS (~37").  Yeah, know that one by heart    .  I build all my work surfaces to be interchangeable with the TS.  3"-4" casters (get dual locking, worth the extra $1 a wheel) will make your shop very agile.  I would add a clamp cart to your list too.  I still have mine hanging on the wall, but as the shop has gotten cluttered and my "Assembly space" moves, tripping over stuff trying to get to the clamp wall is getting old.

Great tip there! I'd been thinking about an out-feed table, but if everything is built around that height it means anything can be used. Maybe a router table (still to be built) could do double-duty. I'd want to keep glue-ups somewhere else of course, but a rolling table that does double (triple?) duty might be nice.  space will be at a premium.

 

 

[ResidentEvil]

In my opinion, you can probably find a cheapo tabletop bandsaw on Craigslist that will significantly outperform a jigsaw table with a decent blade and a proper setup.

Failing that, if probably use the jigsaw handheld before I'd mount it in a table. Stumpynubs is a creative dude, but I think he spends a lot of one making stuff just because he can as opposed to the practical value they have.

[Lee Bussy]

In my opinion, you can probably find a cheapo tabletop bandsaw on Craigslist that will significantly outperform a jigsaw table with a decent blade and a proper setup.

Failing that, if probably use the jigsaw handheld before I'd mount it in a table. Stumpynubs is a creative dude, but I think he spends a lot of one making stuff just because he can as opposed to the practical value they have.

 

A fair assessment.  I did not think it would replace a band saw but thought it might be easier for me to use my jig saw for a while.  

 

I've been watching CL.  Some there but they are either crappy, decrepit, or too expensive.

[ColinF]

Check out menards for their 10" benchtop bandsaw, it's identical with rikons but it says masterforce. Honestly, this will be 100% better than a inverted jigsaw. If that's not to your liking lowes has a fairly inexpensive 9" delta, at least they used to, but I almost guarantee that masterforce one is the better option.

[wtnhighlander]

I have one of those rikon / masterforce 10" saws, sold as a Sears Craftsman. Small capacity, but a very well made tool. Of course, a good blade really makes a bandsaw.

[Lee Bussy]

The wife loves Menards. She won't even see this coming!

Picking up an 8" Grizzly jointer for a song tomorrow. It's in a working wood shop so he's going to put it through its paces for me.

All coming together ....

ETA: did not find a Masterforce one but there is a 10" Rikon :

http://www.menards.com/main/mobile/tools-hardware/power-tools-accessories/saws/rikon-reg-10-band-saw-w-fence/p-2715242-c-9082.htm

[ColinF]

The wife loves Menards. She won't even see this coming!

Picking up an 8" Grizzly jointer for a song tomorrow. It's in a working wood shop so he's going to put it through its paces for me.

All coming together ....

ETA: did not find a Masterforce one but there is a 10" Rikon :

http://www.menards.com/main/mobile/tools-hardware/power-tools-accessories/saws/rikon-reg-10-band-saw-w-fence/p-2715242-c-9082.htm

I couldn't find the masterforce stuff online, I think it's only in the stores, but they don't have rikon stuff in the stores, at least not around here.

[Lee Bussy]

I may have a quandary. I may have to choose between the jointer and the band saw. It feels like I may use the bandsaw a lot more. Whadayathink?

[Tpt life]

Hand jointing vs hand sawing.... I would rather hand joint. Just a preference.

[ColinF]

I may have a quandary. I may have to choose between the jointer and the band saw. It feels like I may use the bandsaw a lot more. Whadayathink?

oh man, life's problems suck! I've been getting by without a jointer, there's plenty of ways around it, just not as effeciently. Personally I use the planer to get 1 side flat, them take it and resaw it close to thickness, giving me 2 flat sides. I'm sure there's easier ways, it's what works for me and you'll be limited with a benchtop BS. Can you skip the jointer and get a 14" BS?

[Brendon_t]

Hand jointing vs hand sawing.... I would rather hand joint. Just a preference.

Definitely agreed. If I had to get by without one, it would be the jointer.

[Lee Bussy]

Definitely First World Problems, eh?

Well since my choice this time was used jointer or mew bandsaw I went with neither. I'll hold out and see if a good used BS comes around.