Use Glue or Nails

[rinconmike]

Hi.  It has been a while since I did any furniture project.  Last one I did around 10 years ago was a little shelf out of red oak and I used all glue and the back split in one spot.  I assume from the wood not being able to move (glued the sides, top, and back).

 

I am now building a Tortoise Table for my son's tortoise.  It will be around 4' x 4' but instead of being square, we will cut on corner off at a 45.  The two 48" sides ends will be 25" high and the shorter sides and front (cut corner) will be 16" high.  This will go in a corner of his room. 

 

I am using a poplar plywood for the base.  For the sides, I am using a Beech Wood Counter Tops we got at Ikea.  We liked the look and feel of that and I had some leftover from another project.  This counter top is pieces glued together.  We will use it where these glued pieces are horizontal opposed to vertical. 

 

I already started cutting the wood and have most of it laid out.  However, before I go further, I wanted to ask the question about gluing or nailing/screwing or both.  Should I glue the sides together along with gluing it to the base plywood or should I not glue everything so the wood does not buckle or split?  Another thought is just glue the sides together, but only nail/screw the base on.

 

I plan on finishing it and then use silicone on all the joints.  For the most part, the Tortoise is dry, but some moister is introduced with misting and cleaning. 

 

thanks,

 

Mike

[wdwerker]

If the joints are going to be end grain to end grain I would use dowels ,dominos or biscuits to reinforce the joints. The wood is mostly going to move in width(across the grain) the length won't change much at all.

You could use pocket screws underneath the plywood to attach it. I would line the bottom and up the sides a few inches with some sort of membrane. Fold the corners.

If you are planning the end grain to be exposed around the top edge it's a disaster waiting to happen. Multiply the total outside perimeter by 1/8" per foot, that's how much it could move !

[rinconmike]

thanks.  The sides will be installed so the grain is running horizontally and not vertically so the joints on the sides should be end grain to end grain.  With this, should the movement be up an down and not side to side?  if so, it sounds like gluing the sides together I will be fine?

 

For the bottom, is just screwing as you suggest sufficient and no glue?  I was thinking of putting a rabbit joint at teh bottom but if I am not gluing it, I assume that is not needed.

 

I was going to silicone the joint between the bottom and sides after I finish it as well.  I have not though of a liner.  Any suggestion on what to use?

 

The bottom will be filled with 6" of dry mulch.

 

thanks again,

 

Mike

 

[wdwerker]

Shower pan liner is pretty tough stuff. A slight rabbett is a good idea, 1/8 is plenty .

[rinconmike]

Hi.  I decided to make this out of Baltic Birch Plywood.

 

From what I have read, this does not move that much.  Is it ok to glue all sides together and also glue the bottom on?  Or should I still only screw the bottom to the sides?

 

thanks,

 

Mike

[rinconmike]

Hi All.  I have most of the pieces cut.  I am making this out of 3/4" Baltic Birch Plywood.  I have a couple additional questions along with the above.

1. I am gluing the sides together and using biscuits.  Should I glue the bottom on too or just screw it on?  The sides will sit on top of the bottom.

2. For the biscuits, is size 10 appropriate and at what spacing.  Size 20 looks too big in that on the butt end piece where the biscuit goes into the thickness of the plywood the 20 looks like it will get too close to the outside face.

thanks,

Mike

 

 

 

[wdwerker]

#20 should work. Cut a slot in a scrap the cut the slot in half. If the thinnest point is about an 1/8 you are fine. There is a depth adjustment and most machines actually cut a bit too deep. When there is only a tiny extra space the biscut needs to be centered carefully . # 10 should be strong enough if  the #20 is too close.

i would glue the joints in the sides and  dry biscuit  the bottom for alignment. Then put screws between the biscuits  to attach it.

are you still planning on a plastic liner of some sort ?

[rinconmike]

I tested the 10 and 20 on scrap.  I need to go double check but I think the 20 is more than 1/8" from the outside face.  

I thought about the liner but do do not think it is needed.  The tortoise environment is pretty dry outside of some daily misting and that gets more on the walls that the bottom.  The bottom will have 6" of a dry cypress mulch (I think it is cypress).  I think I will seal it with waterlox.

I like the idea of the dry biscuit.  What size screws should I go with?

Also, on the sides, what spacing should I go with if I do 20s?

thanks again.

Mike

 

 

 

[shaneymack]

I would space the buscuits every 6-8" and if you are using 3/4" bb ply 1-1/2" screws should do the job. I would predrill and countersink if possible.

[wdwerker]

Yep, 8" apart and#7 or #8 x 1 1/2" screws should work. Definitely pilot and countersink. First and last screw about 1 1/2" from the edge.

[rinconmike]

Thanks all.  For the butt joints on the sides, I have one that is 26" long and the others are 16" long.  For the 26", three biscuits enough?  Should I keep the biscuits 2" from the end.  For the others that are 16" long, 2 biscuits good again with the biscuits 2" from the end or should I be closer to the ends.

For the screw spacing on the bottom, roughly 8" apart for those too?  I am looking at doing the dry biscuit for the bottom alignment that Steve noted above.  I have two sides that are 48" long  Should I use one in the middle and then one at each end around 6" in?  For the two sides that are 24" is two around 8" in from each end good?

thanks again,

Mike

 

 

[shaneymack]

Thanks all.  For the butt joints on the sides, I have one that is 26" long and the others are 16" long.  For the 26", three biscuits enough?  Should I keep the biscuits 2" from the end.  For the others that are 16" long, 2 biscuits good again with the biscuits 2" from the end or should I be closer to the ends.

For the screw spacing on the bottom, roughly 8" apart for those too?  I am looking at doing the dry biscuit for the bottom alignment that Steve noted above.  I have two sides that are 48" long  Should I use one in the middle and then one at each end around 6" in?  For the two sides that are 24" is two around 8" in from each end good?

thanks again,

Mike

 

 

I think 3 biscuits will suffice on the 26" side kept 2" from the end. You cant really put too many screws within reason so i think sticking to 6-8" is fine. As for the dry bisuits for alignment you dont need a ton cause they are just for that, alignment. You will have some adjustability since you are screwing so you can play with the butt joint as you work your way down it predrilling and screwing. You're on the right track.

[rinconmike]

thanks again.  for the glued joints I will use #20 biscuits.  However, for the dry biscuits on the base since it is just for alignment, should I go with #10?

I know I am probably over thinking this, but I just want to measure a bunch of times and cut once :).

thanks

 

[rinconmike]

I looked at the size of #10 and #20 and not a huge difference so for the dry biscuits I will go with the 20.

Attached is a sketch of the screw pattern for the longer back panels.  2" in from the ends and 6" apart except the middle will be 8".

I assume this is enough screws.

thanks, 

[rinconmike]

I am still working on this project.  At the point to start gluing.  I picked up Elmers Carpenter's Wood Glue Max to use on the blued biscut joints connecting the side pieces.  

Before I apply, I figured I would ask if this glue will be fine to use.

thanks,

Mike

[shaneymack]

Yup, its wood glue it's fine. I've used it. No problems

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[rinconmike]

Hi.  Still working on this.  I have been playing with Kreg Pocket Screws.  They make a nice tight joint.  To secure the sides to the bottom (the sides sit on top of the bottom) I was thinking of using pocket screws instead of counter sink screws through the bottom.  I would use the same screw spacing of around 6" with the screws closes to the end at lease 2" away from the ends.

The two long sides will be against a wall, so I would put the pocket screws on the back side angling in.  For the front, I would put the pocket screws on the inside of the side angling out.  I will fill pockets with the kreg plugs.

Also, for the vertical joints connecting the sides together, I am gluing these with some biscuits, but plan on screwing with pocket screws too.

Any reason not to use the pocket screws to secure the bottom?  Should I go with counter sink through the bottom instead?  The Kreg pocket screws seems like it will provide a stronger joint. 

thanks again.

Mike

 

[wtnhighlander]

Pocket screws are much less likely to cause a split than screws run into end grain, or plywood edges.

[rinconmike]

thanks.  I drilled most of the pocket holes today.