Brendon_t Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm a big consumer of wood working media on the Internet. Over the last six months or so, it appears that they have been supplying a lot of the bigger channels with an x-carve to demo and play with. Great marketing on their part it seems. Has anyone else gone to the inventables website? The bigger ready to assemble unit is right at about $1300. Seems like a great deal for a cnc machine. I can think of about a hundred things off hand I would use one of those for everywhere from inlays to non wood art. Too cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Gosh Brendon, for a change, I have to disagree with ya. I guess cnc has it's place, but for the most part, when I go to Rockler and see theirs going, I think, why not go to Ikea? There's no skill involved. I guess I will get shot down for this? Move over Donald! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 The Shapeoko 3 from Carbide 3D is worth looking at too. The X-Carve is a refined Shapeoko 2. The Shapeoko 3 is a totally new design with a much beefier frame. Only available with a 16"x16" cutting area right now but they are looking to go to at least the 4'x4' range soon. They don't have the marketing that Inventables has, but what they do have is a pretty killer machine. Well at least I hope so. I turned down getting an X-Carve for it. We'll find out in a couple weeks (I hope). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Coop that's why it's a discussion. It (a cnc) is not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 You're probably right, but to me it's more like a crock pot, set in the morning and when you get home, it's done. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 You're probably right, but to me it's more like a crock pot, set in the morning and when you get home, it's done. If you only use it to make your projects then, you'd be correct. If you use it to add to your project then it is just another tool much like the domino.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post krtwood Posted July 22, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It is of course impossible to have a discussion about cncs without someone who has never used one saying it isn't real woodworking. It doesn't really take any skill to use a table saw. It just makes that perfectly straight and square cut that you couldn't do with a hand saw and all you have to do is stand there and feed the wood through it. So I guess using a table saw isn't real woodworking. Don't even get me started on jointers and planers. If you have a planer you aren't a real woodworker. If you aren't milling you own rough stock you aren't a real woodworker. If you use pocket holes you aren't a real woodworker. If you use plywood you aren't a real woodworker. Whatever you are doing somebody is more woodworking-y than you. A cnc is just a router and a template where the template happens to be in the computer. It doesn't do anything without you telling it what to do. It's like having an idiot savant shop helper who can do EXACTLY what you tell them to do but has zero ability to determine on their own whether what you told them to do makes any freaking sense. If you told them to make a 4" deep mortise, 1" long in that 1.5" thick stock they will happily put a mortise right through the stock into the workbench without batting an eye or especially asking if you're sure about that. Think about how sure you need to be that you have everything right before you hit that start button if you are running half a dozen operations sequentially. At the end of the day it's about translating an idea into a real object. How you get there is up to you. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It is of course impossible to have a discussion about cncs without someone who has never used one saying it isn't real woodworking. It doesn't really take any skill to use a table saw. It just makes that perfectly straight and square cut that you couldn't do with a hand saw and all you have to do is stand there and feed the wood through it. So you preemptively became "that guy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenskye Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 If I had room and could afford I would buy one. I get both sides of the cnc vs woodworking debate and I guess I have got 1 foot on each side of the line. I believe that it can enhance projects, but I can also see how it could be great for batching out novelty items (signs with names on them, etc.). The Xcarve is a reasonable entry price for incorporating a cnc in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I might use a cnc if it fell into my lap, or if I needed lots of identical parts. Otherwise, I prefer to make stuff with my hands, rather than via software. I do enough on the pc at work, don't wanna see it when I get home. I don't even use Sketchup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Gosh Brendon, for a change, I have to disagree with ya. I guess cnc has it's place, but for the most part, when I go to Rockler and see theirs going, I think, why not go to Ikea? There's no skill involved. I guess I will get shot down for this? Move over Donald! Rather like using a power jointer to joint a board instead of developing real skill with a hand plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post wdwerker Posted July 22, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I see both sides of the issue. To decorate/ enhance a project like ingraving names or complex designs it's a sophisticated tool for woodworking. To batch out parts in production you just crossed the line into manufacturing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I would love to be able to do the beautiful inlays on cutting boards like mtm wood does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 The only reason I wouldn't use CNC is that it involves computers. I have an IT job, I want to be as far away as possible from computers when it comes to my woodworking hobby. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Llama Posted July 22, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It is of course impossible to have a discussion about cncs without someone who has never used one saying it isn't real woodworking. It doesn't really take any skill to use a table saw. It just makes that perfectly straight and square cut that you couldn't do with a hand saw and all you have to do is stand there and feed the wood through it. So I guess using a table saw isn't real woodworking. Don't even get me started on jointers and planers. If you have a planer you aren't a real woodworker. If you aren't milling you own rough stock you aren't a real woodworker. If you use pocket holes you aren't a real woodworker. If you use plywood you aren't a real woodworker. Whatever you are doing somebody is more woodworking-y than you. A cnc is just a router and a template where the template happens to be in the computer. It doesn't do anything without you telling it what to do. It's like having an idiot savant shop helper who can do EXACTLY what you tell them to do but has zero ability to determine on their own whether what you told them to do makes any freaking sense. If you told them to make a 4" deep mortise, 1" long in that 1.5" thick stock they will happily put a mortise right through the stock into the workbench without batting an eye or especially asking if you're sure about that. Think about how sure you need to be that you have everything right before you hit that start button if you are running half a dozen operations sequentially. At the end of the day it's about translating an idea into a real object. How you get there is up to you. This is spot on. For some reason we have the need to label ourselves and our work. That guy is a power tool guy, and there's a hand tool guy.. And don't get me started on this hybrid label. It makes me cringe every time I hear it. Sorry Marc.. Unless you are cutting down your own tree, milling it, drying it, and doing everything by hand... You are taking a shortcut. Some may argue that certain hand tools are a shortcut... But those people are crazy and since I don't like labels I can't talk about them. Kevin's comparison of a CNC and a Domino are very good. Yes, the domino does speed things up. Just because it's easy to use doesn't make someone that uses it less of a woodworker. And for the most part, your client doesn't fricken care what tool you used to make their piece. I forget who said it, but in a recent FWW mag, the contributor said that he has never had a client ask how thin his shavings are. So in the end, who are we trying to impress? It should be the client. So as long you're making stuff, and your client is happy... Go for it! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I personally would love an X-Carve. My main purpose for it's use would be doing inlays. I always hear people complain about messing something up when they are inlaying, or doing something that is super precise and intricate. The CNC removes that horrible feeling of "am I gonna mess this piece up with a slip of the chisel or something. If you're a hand tool only guy, a CNC isn't for you. If you're a power tool guy, maybe you'd like a CNC. If you're a person who wants to add a plaque with your name and year carved into it to your Roubo bench you just built, a CNC is a great way to do it. If you wanna do a complex inlay on an ebony or rosewood fretboard, or your logo on a headstock of a guitar you're building, a cnc is a great way to do it. Ever mess up towads the end of a project by doing some finishing touches and you need to make a piece again? I say let people use what they want to reach the end result of a piece regardless of how they get there. We're not manufacturing things in mass quantities with it. We're utilizing capabilities of tasks that take a lifetime to master, in an age where technology can help us. Also, cnc machines are great for making jigs. When I made a concave round dish for gluing x braces on a guitar, I built this ridiculous pendulum apparatus for my router to swing back and fourth to get the circular radius I needed, then I spent hours cleaning it up with a foam block. That's trivial crap that is best left to a machine. I figured I'd save 140 bucks doing it myself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I personally would love an X-Carve. My main purpose for it's use would be doing inlays. I always hear people complain about messing something up when they are inlaying, or doing something that is super precise and intricate. The CNC removes that horrible feeling of "am I gonna mess this piece up with a slip of the chisel or something. If you're a hand tool only guy, a CNC isn't for you. If you're a power tool guy, maybe you'd like a CNC. If you're a person who wants to add a plaque with your name and year carved into it to your Roubo bench you just built, a CNC is a great way to do it. If you wanna do a complex inlay on an ebony or rosewood fretboard, or your logo on a headstock of a guitar you're building, a cnc is a great way to do it. Ever mess up towads the end of a project by doing some finishing touches and you need to make a piece again? I say let people use what they want to reach the end result of a piece regardless of how they get there. We're not manufacturing things in mass quantities with it. We're utilizing capabilities of tasks that take a lifetime to master, in an age where technology can help us. Also, cnc machines are great for making jigs. When I made a concave round dish for gluing x braces on a guitar, I built this ridiculous pendulum apparatus for my router to swing back and fourth to get the circular radius I needed, then I spent hours cleaning it up with a foam block. That's trivial crap that is best left to a machine. I figured I'd save 140 bucks doing it myself. Exactly my line of thought. If you're a pro, don't hesitate, get a CNC machine and learn how to use if before it's too late and you lost your business to your competitors. If you're a hobbyist, then do whatever makes you feel better and disconnected from your problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I see both sides of the issue. To decorate/ enhance a project like ingraving names or complex designs it's a sophisticated tool for woodworking. To batch out parts in production you just crossed the line into manufacturing. When does that line get crossed? If a piece has a lot of identical parts and you fixture and cut them all at once how is that so different? You move into manufacturing if you are making a lot of the same piece, of course there are lots of notable people who did this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 When does that line get crossed? If a piece has a lot of identical parts and you fixture and cut them all at once how is that so different? You move into manufacturing if you are making a lot of the same piece, of course there are lots of notable people who did this as well. It becomes manufacturing when you're building the same piece as in completed piece. If you're making 8 carved appliqués for accenting a project or perhaps you're building yourself a bedroom set and you need to make 20 identical knob appliqués that will go under the drawer pulls to add depth and contrast, that's not manufacturing. If you're making parts with dados and rabbets and curves and cuts to assemble several almost finished products that just requires sanding and finishing, you're now manufacturing. Here's a good example. I put down a 1/4" mahogany board that's been milled that is 18" long and 8" wide, and I program the machine to cut out 6 or 8 snowflakes, then I switch out and put in a piece of cherry the same size, followed by a piece of bubinga, etc. Now I take those pieces and spray them and sell them on etsy as a package of 5 wooden snowflakes. Now you're manufacturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 It becomes manufacturing when you're building the same piece as in completed piece. If you're making 8 carved appliqués for accenting a project or perhaps you're building yourself a bedroom set and you need to make 20 identical knob appliqués that will go under the drawer pulls to add depth and contrast, that's not manufacturing. If you're making parts with dados and rabbets and curves and cuts to assemble several almost finished products that just requires sanding and finishing, you're now manufacturing. Here's a good example. I put down a 1/4" mahogany board that's been milled that is 18" long and 8" wide, and I program the machine to cut out 6 or 8 snowflakes, then I switch out and put in a piece of cherry the same size, followed by a piece of bubinga, etc. Now I take those pieces and spray them and sell them on etsy as a package of 5 wooden snowflakes. Now you're manufacturing. So any set of dinning-room chairs is by its nature manufacturing? And what percentage of professional woodworkers are manufacturers at least in part instead of woodworkers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I don't know about you guys, but I don't care if anyone ever decides I'm not a real "woodworker." I want to make awesome stuff, and don't really care how I get there. Drives me crazy though that these guys get so much free stuff. I got a friend that is looking to buy a cnc machine, though he says the x-carve is too small for his tastes. He was looking at one for $250,000. He's not quite able to pull the trigger because he hasn't come up with a viable product to make with it. I have a pretty good viable product - mdf comic book frames, but the amount of hassle that is required to get them to look good has stopped me from even making prototypes. For instance, the current ones on the market are done with powder paint, requires an oven, so that makes even medium scale manufacturing a big investment. If you aren't going to use powder paint, you want glossy and I hear it's not fun to get mdf glossy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 So any set of dinning-room chairs is by its nature manufacturing? And what percentage of professional woodworkers are manufacturers at least in part instead of woodworkers? Are you making that chair solely with the cnc? If so you're manufacturing. If you're batching out leg parts with a taper jig on a table saw, or bandsaw and rounding out legs with a rasp, you're not manufacturing. Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Coop that's why it's a discussion. It (a cnc) is not for everyone. Brendons correct, a cmc may not be for everyone. It is the same for all tools not to long ago Eric purchased a new lathe, almost the same time that I sold mine because I just wasn't finding anything I wanted to do with it. The minute I saw the OP I knew where Brendon was headed. I have watched some of mtm wood's video and he does some interesting things with the cmc and cutting boards. You're probably right, but to me it's more like a crock pot, set in the morning and when you get home, it's done. And Coop is right in that it is a little like a crockpot, but some of the best food I have eaten has come from a crock pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 And what percentage of professional woodworkers are manufacturers at least in part instead of woodworkers? It's the labels that cause the confusion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 some of the best food I have eaten has come from a crock pot. You should get out more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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