When to call a yard on defect boards

[Pwk5017]

this is my 3rd "big order" from the same yard. 'Big' to me is 500bdft at once. Total came to about $2100 delivered to my door after tax. Delivery is free when you spend enough, and this yard does not allow you to handle any boards yourself. I realize I'm not even close to being a large enough client for these people, but 2 grand is a chunk of change on lumber, and I'll probably end the year spending 5-8k. It grinds my gears when I receive boards that I would classify as complete garbage.  The one has severe bug damage(lumber is kiln dried, could have happened before the kiln) and has a 18" check at the other end of the board. It's completely useless except for a 3' section in the middle. Then, I probably have 30-40% of the boards that aren't dimensional lumber. This might be excusable if the board is 8-10" wide, but if it's 5.75" wide and then you lose 1-2" of width to it not being rectilinear, I'm really limited in what I can do with 8' of 3" wide 8/4. Do I need to bite the bullet and step up to FAS or face and better in walnut? Is this to be expected in 1 common walnut or am I getting shafted? I paid $4.50 a bf for 1com and the step up to face and better is crazy $7.50-8 a bf. At what point do you shut up and take it and when do you bitch about it? I don't currently have another supplier lined up, so I don't have to burn a bridge yet if I can avoid it. 

 

Can't get my photos off my phone. I'll have to add them later

 

Ok, PC to the rescue.

[..Kev]

I would return the unusable boards..  You're going to get some of that.  I get some of that on boards that I hand pick but, I am able to pick them to accommodate my needs. 

[Just Bob]

this is my 3rd "big order" from the same yard. 'Big' to me is 500bdft at once. Total came to about $2100 delivered to my door after tax. Delivery is free when you spend enough, and this yard does not allow you to handle any boards yourself. I realize I'm not even close to being a large enough client for these people, but 2 grand is a chunk of change on lumber, and I'll probably end the year spending 5-8k. It grinds my gears when I receive boards that I would classify as complete garbage.  The one has severe bug damage(lumber is kiln dried, could have happened before the kiln) and has a 18" check at the other end of the board. It's completely useless except for a 3' section in the middle. Then, I probably have 30-40% of the boards that aren't dimensional lumber. This might be excusable if the board is 8-10" wide, but if it's 5.75" wide and then you lose 1-2" of width to it not being rectilinear, I'm really limited in what I can do with 8' of 3" wide 8/4. Do I need to bite the bullet and step up to FAS or face and better in walnut? Is this to be expected in 1 common walnut or am I getting shafted? I paid $4.50 a bf for 1com and the step up to face and better is crazy $7.50-8 a bf. At what point do you shut up and take it and when do you bitch about it? I don't currently have another supplier lined up, so I don't have to burn a bridge yet if I can avoid it. 

Maybe I am old and crotchety, never mind I am. If they don't let you pick your boards, then as far as I am concerned they are guaranteeing their product.  If they did not send you what you what you paid for, return all or part and make them pick it up!  If that is burning a bridge, light the fire and spend your money else where.

[krtwood]

I know the grading for walnut to be FAS is relaxed compared to other woods.  I'm not sure how that translates down to the lower grades but I can't imagine it makes them extra special good.  Walnut is crazy expensive right now.  If you want wide it's super crazy expensive.

[Brendon_t]

I would go into the grading chart and take a copy out to the shop. Inspect the boards you received and measure the good cuts and ensure that the boards you recd are actually up to the grade you paid for. 

If you went lower on the quality/rating to lower the price, and you recd boards that measure out to the standards set in grading, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

if you paid for one grade but 20% of your order isn't up to that grade! dang right I'd be calling them and asking them when they would be bringing the correct lumber and picking up the crap they sent you in its place.

[Eric.]

You're getting what you paid for.  As krt mentioned, walnut grading has been softened up by NHLA lately because of low supply and high demand...a nasty little trick employed by the industry.  It's nice to make up your own rules, eh?

On top of that, FAS grading already allows for a surprising percentage of defect even before the relaxed walnut grading...83% clear is all that's required for any board (of proper dimension) to qualify as FAS.  I'm not sure what the number is for walnut, but it's lower.

On top of that, you're buying commons...only 66% clear is required and only a 3" wide minimum.

Expect a lot of waste when buying commons...that's why you're getting that low price.

If you're picky about your lumber and you want to maximize your dollar, find a yard that sells FAS and lets you hand-pick your boards.

Here's a PDF outlining NHLA rules...

http://ahec.org/hardwoods/pdfs/illustratedgradingguide.pdf

Edited August 1, 2015 by eric1978

[Trip]

With lumber, you generally get what you pay for... If you want all furniture-grade, no sap, flat straight & true, with no defects and all long/wide sticks, you’re going to pay for that... Every once in a while you get all FAS when you buy #1, but it doesn’t happen all that often... And you don’t get screwed all that often either --- in the age of the internet, lumber guys who screw customers don’t stay in business...

On top of that, hobby woodworkers are a Pain-in-the-Ass for lumber yards... Their volume is low and their OCD is high ($2K is a small order)... When I get an iffy stick (or three) and my OCD kicks-in, then I ask for an extra stick on my next order – most times I get it (because I don’t abuse it). I’ve found most dealers are OK with that – as long as it’s like for like (don’t ask for an extra stick on a $200 order, when you got a bad stick on a $2K order)... Before I let my OCD get the better of me, I see if most of an iffy stick can still be used -- legs, aprons, pulls, glides, kicks, rails, feet, etc... If 75% of the stick will go into a project, I let it slide.

Note: unless you hand-pick your stock, you have to expect an iffy stick now and again – that’s why you should always purchase an extra few sticks for a project... Even if you hand pick, unless it’s all QS, you’ll lose some to shop acclimation...

[tim0625]

I agree with the other posters to a point, but....I'm thinking a $2100 order goes a little beyond the "give the PIA whatever's available" type of order.  I think I'd take my ticket and put the questionable boards in the truck and go back and ask for the manager.  Let him walk out to your truck and in private to talk with him.  You don't want to inflame a relationship so just politely ask "if this looks right or am I missing something?"  He may say you asked for #1 common and this is to be expected.  He may see the $2100 amount on the ticket and say, "Yeah, I think we can do a little better than that" or give you a credit on the next order if you can make these boards work. The key is leave your frustration in the truck and be courteous but ask the question.  You said it is the only supplier so this conversation is larger than just one purchase that says...."MAKE IT RIGHT!!!" It's something to work through because you're working from the perspective of a longer term relationship.

[bushwacked]

ya that does suck, but I would look at it as maybe that board could be used on a future project. I would just cut off the bad side and set in on the lumber rack for later and go get another few boards ... I guess this is just me wanting to grow my lumber stash to more than 1 or 2 boards though 

[Eric.]

Missing the point...it IS right.  He was given exactly what he ordered...commons.  You have to expect a certain amount of skinny boards and defects...up to 33% of the entire pack, to be exact (and even more with walnut).

It would be like buying a Ford Focus, then returning a week later and giving the salesman a hard time because it doesn't perform like a Mustang GT.  He got what he paid for.

[tim0625]

Mike, I hear you on the #1 grading thing but I did NOT say go and "complain"...I said ask a question.  About everyone tolerates a courteous question.  He may hear exactly what you are suggesting....fine.   #2, the supplier is not going to look at a $2100 order with the potential of a customer spending $5K-8K a year on lumber and get mad because a polite question was asked.  Yeah, it he goes in there balls to the wall, he will get no where and could make the supplier mad toward other hobbists/small operations but that is in no way what I've suggested.

[Brendon_t]

Missing the point...it IS right.  He was given exactly what he ordered...commons.  You have to expect a certain amount of skinny boards and defects...up to 33% of the entire pack, to be exact (and even more with walnut).

It would be like buying a Ford Focus, then returning a week later and giving the salesman a hard time because it doesn't perform like a Mustang GT.  He got what he paid for.

this is kind of where my head was.  All of those look about right for common. . 

[estesbubba]

Here is a #1 common board from my local supplier. 

 

[tim0625]

That's kind of what I'm saying....bring the boards and just ask. Through the years, I've learned how you ask is crucial.  I usually ask "am I missing something?" It gives the guy an open door to say "yes you are" and usually doesn't fan any flames.  Having said allllllll of that, it looks like when you buy a #1 common walnut, it's a crap shoot whether you get a board that's 50% or 75% usable and when you buy this, you have to plan for it.  Does that sound that right? . 

Edited August 1, 2015 by tim0625

[Eric.]

Yes Tim.  Remember, commons are culled out of FAS.  If they were good or great boards, they would be FAS.  There's a reason they end up in the commons stack.  When you buy commons, you have to realize you're deciding to buy boards that are skinnier and have more defects.  You're making the choice...lower price for lower quality.  You can't buy commons and expect to get FAS.  When you push the "regular" button at the gas pump, do you expect "premium" to come out of the hose?  It's the same with lumber.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Eric.

[Tom King]

I don't even buy framing lumber without picking through it, and don't remember buying "commons" for any reason.

[Pwk5017]

All fair comments, thanks for the responses. I haven't worked out the percentages on that particular board, but it really is just a turd sandwich. I don't want to see bug damage on any board from a respected supplier. Throw that crap out, don't send it to me. I might take the time to measure that specific board, but it cost about $30 with very little usable material in there.

Perhaps I should have just turned the post into a gripe about the cost of walnut versus the quality of the boards. I'm buying FAS cherry and hard maple for 20% less than 1com walnut. And the 1com freaking blows. 1com maple and cherry would be ten times better than their walnut counterpart. 

Eric, since you work for a yard and are clearly in their camp, when does a customer begin to "matter" to a yard. I actually know that I'm barely a blip on these guy's radar, but quite a few people were outraged by how much I spent versus my perceived value of the product received. What is the point that a customer begins to get more favorable board selection and pricing? I am pricing up a potential job, and i asked for a quote of 500-600 bdft of a species. Somehow buying 500 foot of a species versus 200 foot of a species resulted in a drastic reduction in price per bdft. If I had the ability to store it, I would clearly benefit from ordering 500' of one species at once. Is that the general rule of thumb with most yards?

 

Patrick

[krtwood]

That would surely depend on the yard.  The place I go to they only seem to buy 100-200 BF at a time themselves and I usually end up walking out of there with every half decent board they've got.  I've only ever spent as much as $1200 in there at once but Carl knows my name and what I'm going to be buying before I do.  I've walked in there and there wasn't any walnut at all that wasn't crap and as soon as he saw me he got on the phone to get an update on his order so he could tell me when to expect it.

I could go another 25 miles down the road to the bigger place but somehow even though they've got a million BF on hand it's $1 more per BF for walnut there and about the same for everything else, at least if you are buying under 250 BF, and I'm sure my 100 BF order isn't going to mean a thing to them.

500 BF is what is on their pallets, so if you buy 500 BF they never have to even unstrap it from the pallet it came in on.

[Eric.]

 

Eric, since you work for a yard and are clearly in their camp, when does a customer begin to "matter" to a yard. I actually know that I'm barely a blip on these guy's radar, but quite a few people were outraged by how much I spent versus my perceived value of the product received. What is the point that a customer begins to get more favorable board selection and pricing? I am pricing up a potential job, and i asked for a quote of 500-600 bdft of a species. Somehow buying 500 foot of a species versus 200 foot of a species resulted in a drastic reduction in price per bdft. If I had the ability to store it, I would clearly benefit from ordering 500' of one species at once. Is that the general rule of thumb with most yards?

 

Patrick

 

Patrick,

I don't technically "work" for a yard and I'm not "in their camp."  I'm a woodworker first and I hang out at my local yard on the weekends, work the register, shoot the breeze with customers and help them with their projects.  I do this for fun and to get a deal on lumber.

The customer always matters.  Just like any other business, without happy customers you're not gonna do very well.  This may be a little bit less true with hardwood dealers since there tends to be so few in a given area and people are kind of stuck with what they have.  But at least at my yard, the customer's buying experience and satisfaction is of the utmost importance...within reason.

As for quantity discounts, the owner of my yard gives customers 10% off on purchases of 100 bf or larger.  He's a small operation...he doesn't have the space to stock huge quantities of material.  So if you came in and needed 500 or 1,000 bf, most likely he would have to order a pack for you and would work with you to get the best price he can give you.  But he still has to make money and he can only get it so cheap.  The price is the price and that's just the way it is, and unfortunately you would be at the mercy of the mill and you would get what they shipped...out of the dealer's control.  If you didn't want a bunch of waste and crap boards, I would highly recommend not buying commons.  You're just asking for junk. 

You're going to have to accept the reality that, as of right now, walnut is graded on a more lenient scale than other hardwoods, so the quality in general is going to be lower than other species of the same grade.  Supply is low and demand is high...you know what happens to the price...just like every other commodity on earth.  It's a drag...I share your discontent.  I love walnut too and I don't like paying $10.75/bf for 8/4 FAS that's full of knots and sapwood.  Unfortunately that's the way it is right now.  Why?...

All the premium, clear logs never even make it into the US market...they're stuffed into shipping containers and sent to China.  Without going into an economics lesson, the Chinese are willing to pay top dollar for the best walnut lumber, so we sell it to them at top dollar, which drives the supply down and the price up.  If you don't like the walnut prices and quality, email your Senator I guess, and see if you can get them to write a walnut embargo into law.  There's not much else that can be done.  It's not the dealer's fault that the prices are high and the quality is low.  It's a global market, and the market determines the price.  Distributors and dealers are just following suit and passing on the cost.

The only things I can recommend are to buy FAS instead of commons, and to find a dealer who will let you pick your own boards...and lower your expectations.  I know it sucks, but that's life.  Maybe in 20 years walnut will fall back out of favor and we can buy it for the price of red oak.  In the meantime, explain to your customers the reason for the high cost of walnut, and price your work accordingly.  The cost is always passed on to the end consumer.  So pass it on.

 

[Brendon_t]

Well said Eric. 

[RPCV_Woodworker]

Where were you ordering from?

[Tom King]

There is still plenty of good walnut to be had from local sawyers, or at least in the states around here.  I guess I should consider selling some of my stache, but tell, probably not.

[Woodenskye]

I was at one of the places I buy from on occasion and the only walnut the have is FAS, and it is priced accordingly.  They aren't a large place, but they don't really carry common boards.  They allow people to pick through their stock, as long as you help stack what you pull out.  

I agree with Eric and thank him for the lesson.  Great advise that you need to educate the customer and why walnut is expensive and then you can buy better stock.  I have never bought 100+ board feet at a time, so discounts are foreign to me.  But a good business should care about all customers, or they will probably have a short life span as a business.  

Since you have this new information, maybe you could take extremely crappy boards back to the dealer and get to pick a few replacement common boards, but use that time to see if you can get a preferred price on FAS for the future.

[Pwk5017]

I was at one of the places I buy from on occasion and the only walnut the have is FAS, and it is priced accordingly.  They aren't a large place, but they don't really carry common boards.  They allow people to pick through their stock, as long as you help stack what you pull out.  

I agree with Eric and thank him for the lesson.  Great advise that you need to educate the customer and why walnut is expensive and then you can buy better stock.  I have never bought 100+ board feet at a time, so discounts are foreign to me.  But a good business should care about all customers, or they will probably have a short life span as a business.  

Since you have this new information, maybe you could take extremely crappy boards back to the dealer and get to pick a few replacement common boards, but use that time to see if you can get a preferred price on FAS for the future.

If only it were that easy. Unfortunately, if i go to FAS walnut, that means my prices need to go up 50-60%, YIKES. Given that 60-70% of my work is in walnut, I depend on it being semi-affordable. Trust me, I love when people order cherry or maple, and I can go pull a 120" board off my rack that is clear from start to beginning. I can basically fall asleep throughout the milling process and the end product looks sweet. Not so easy with walnut. You see some of my stock. It requires some serious thinking and creativity to make money out of those boards. So far so good, but its a lot more effort on my end. Is 1com crap? Sometimes, but sometimes not. Gotta make lemonade out of lemons sometimes. I just wish those lemons were cheaper.

[estesbubba]

Sounds like your trying to absorb the price of walnut for your customers. If they want a premium hardwood than you need to charge them premium prices. By buying commons to try and save money you are actually producing more waste and taking more time to figure out all your cuts.