Newbie DIY Table Leg help

[John.H]

Aloha Folks,

I've been tasked with making a few tables for a shop/museum that I work at and I will need some heavy duty 3'x5' tables to store merchandise on.  My manager would like solid tables made out of hard wood.  I'd like to have the top out of 2x8s and the legs out of 4x4s with an apron of 2x4s.  I've picked up a pockethole jig and I also have a router so I'm considering using mortise and tenon joining for the apron & legs or possibly just using the pockethole jig.

On to the problem, I've found a lumber yard which will supply 2x8x10s for the table top in Poplar, but I'm having trouble finding anything other than Cedar or Douglas Fir for the 4x4s after calling several suppliers.  I've looked at a couple plans recommended on this site, namely http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/10/27/make-a-dining-room-table-by-thanksgiving/ (less the footrest) but wanted some input from you on possible solutions/ideas.  

The table will be finished in a Ebony Stain and water based poly.  Can I do OK with Douglas Fir 4x4s?  Or should I seriously consider/convince my boss on joining two poplar 2x4s?

Mahlao,

 

J.

[Janello]

I'm not sure you'll like ebony stain on poplar, might want to try a scrap test first, before getting too deep into the project. I think you'll find ash and/or oak take black stain better. I see no reason not to use DF 4x4's for the legs. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Janello

[Strasberry]

I agree with Janello about the Doug Fir, but have not used ebony on poplar. But it would be wise to follow his recommendation for testing on scrap first!

[wdwerker]

Poplar has a greenish color that may affect the ebony. Sand to maybe 100 grit on a sample and try one or two coats. It needs to be wiped back before it completely dries. Don't leave stain sitting on the surface or the finish may fail.

[Mick S]

I'd blow off the poplar and make the whole thing out of DF. To my tastes, it's a much prettier wood.

[Bombarde16]

Sounds like a fun project and a great way to make yourself more valuable at work.  A few reactions:

• If the goal is "heavy-duty" then I'd shy away from pocket screws to join the aprons and legs.  That joint gets a lot of racking force and I can't imagine using pocket screws in a table that will see much in the way of abuse.  Use your router to make mortises, use a circular saw to do half laps, etc.  Use pockets on the underside to clamp the top together, fine.  Use pockets to hold the top to the base, fine.  But not for the leg-apron joint.
• 4x4 posts are a great starting point for legs.  If you don't have access to a thicknesser, I'd be wary of trying to face glue thinner stock, especially thinner stock that's straight from the store and probably isn't remotely flat.
• A 4x4 leg isn't going to win any awards for elegance.  Any ideas on what you might do to dress them up?  Rout a profile down the edge?  Rout fluting down the face?  Taper them?  I did a project with 4x4s years back and used a circular saw to cut integral finials.  (Jig up the saw to slide sideways and make a cove cut on four sides.)  Any access to a lathe?  Any willingness to bodger up a jig that would turn your router into a lathe?

The table will be finished in a Ebony Stain and water based poly.

• Ah, the siren song of inexpensive lumber and a dark, coarse pigment stain...Every woodworker goes through this phase and please don't hold it against me if I try to steer you away.  If the decor of the shop must be black wood, then I'd venture your best bet is to paint the project black instead of trying to stain it.  The black (or "Java" or "Ebony" or whatever...) wood finishes peddled by the likes of Pottery Barn, Ikea, Crate & Barrel, etc. that everyone loves are deceptive beasts.  In a nutshell, the reason they are so appealing is because they are applied to coarse-grained woods such as red oak or ash.  The surface of the wood is completely covered by pigment, but the light still catches in the open pores, making it seem like a natural finish ever though the actual wood grain has been obliterated.  You, on the other hand, are using poplar, fir or cedar...none of which have any pores to speak of.

Good hunting.

[wtnhighlander]

Be careful if mixing species in a stained project, as the different woods do not generally take color the same. Grain patterns will also differ, detracting from the over all appearance, unless the differences are accounted for in the design. Personally, I would use a single species, even if it required laminating to get the thicker pieces. I would also consider a dye, rather than stain, for a uniformly dark surface. There are dyes formulated specifically for wood, but if a true solid black is desired, Kiwi liquid leather dye (sold with the other shoe polish products) works great. India ink is another option. Compared to paint, the dyes give a solid black color, but do not fill in the texture of the wood.

[John.H]

Thank you for all the great responses, this has given me quite a bit to think about.

I'd blow off the poplar and make the whole thing out of DF. To my tastes, it's a much prettier wood.

I was hoping to make the table out of a hard wood, but I've called a few suppliers and I'm having trouble finding all the pieces I need in Poplar or Red Oak.  How sturdy of wood is Douglas Fir?  As it stands, it's the only wood that I can get everything I need in besides pine.  Could I make the top out of 2x6's and the skirt out of 2x4s and the legs out of 4x4 and have it be a great sturdy table that can take a beating?  I'd also stain it a darker color, or perhaps use an ink as others had suggested.

• If the goal is "heavy-duty" then I'd shy away from pocket screws to join the aprons and legs.  That joint gets a lot of racking force and I can't imagine using pocket screws in a table that will see much in the way of abuse.  Use your router to make mortises, use a circular saw to do half laps, etc.  Use pockets on the underside to clamp the top together, fine.  Use pockets to hold the top to the base, fine.  But not for the leg-apron joint.

Thank you for the info about the pocket holes.  I think I'll use them to join the table top to the skirt and the individual top pieces but try my hand at mortise and tenon joints for the skirt to leg joints.  I've watched a few videos but I need to do some more research.  Does anyone know of a good commercial mortise and tenon jig?

I may use half laps as well for the bottom "runners" but I'm not sure how I would do this for the skirt pieces.

Many people suggested using a dye as opposed to a stain.  I'll have to do some research here to see what the different methods produce.  I think however as was suggested I need to do some testing on the actual wood with some dyes and stain once I've settled on the wood type.

 

Again, thank you so much for all your wonderful responses.

John.

 

 

 

[Mick S]

John - Douglas fir is considerably tougher than softer pines like sugar pine. Yellow pine is a different story. People use it for workbenches all the time. For a retail store I don't think I would hesitate to use DF for fixtures, especially a museum store - I suspect most of your customers aren't dropping hammers on the displays. I've made dining tables and coffee tables from DF that have held up well to kids, parties, etc for decades.

[Eric.]

Assuming you have a table saw, this is a tenoning jig...

http://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-tenoning-jig?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=CjwKEAjw6IauBRCJ3KPXkNro1BoSJAAhXxpyW3rb6f9mCMB6nIS0cD5R5ItBmf-ZZrpIiuA7NjXCThoCc8rw_wcB

 

Make your mortises with a router and straight bit, and round the ends of the tenons with a rasp.  Marc has a million videos of making M&T on the free site.

It's an APRON, not a skirt!

[Bombarde16]

Perhaps a bit more information about where these tables will live is in order.  How badly do you expect them to be abused?  If you're making a table out of dimensional lumber, it's going to be just about bomb-proof no matter what species you use.  Sink a tenon into a mortise with 4x4's and 2x6's and you don't have furniture, you have timber framing suitable for holding up a building.

That said, the stated concern for durability makes me question your chosen finish.  If these tables are going to get kicked around, I would want a finish that will age gracefully and be easy to freshen up after a year of dings and scrapes reveals bare wood at the edges and wear points.  To me, that's not pigment under poly, that's an oil-varnish blend.  Is there any way you could pitch your boss a clear finish?  You'd have to be pickier about your boards, but that's a good exercise regardless.