estesbubba Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) In my quest to get a warm oil look with walnut using waterbornes I've tried several recipes. I know I'll never get the Waterlox look I love using waterbornes but I would like to get close. Below are some of my test boards.Wide board - air dried with thinned oil poly followed by waterborne poly top coats. The oil poly warmed it up some but not enough for my tastes.Middle board - kiln/steam dried with Waterlox original followed by Waterlox satin. This is the look I'm going for.Long board - air dried with Lockwood American walnut water dye followed by waterborne poly. It actually warmed it up nicely but too strong of a mix for my liking. I have more test boards currently started:- oil poly + garnet shellac + waterborne poly- garnet shellac + waterborne poly I'm thinking of throwing in an American walnut dyed board with a weaker solution than the board pictured.So at what point do you consider coloring walnut a sin? To me oil and shellac is OK. Oil based stain and PolyShades are forbidden. So where do you put a weak coat of water dye to warm it up?In the end the only person I have to please is me. I know the easy answer is to just use Waterlox but the slow dry times, dust nibs, and stinking in the house for weeks are downsides. With waterbornes I can spray and complete in a fraction of the time and get a glass smooth topcoat. Edited August 17, 2015 by estesbubba 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I'm liking all 3, middle, wide and long in that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I am not personally offended by anyone coloring wood, even walnut, any way they please. However, the long board in you photo looks more like a piece of laser printed Ikea 'walnut' particle board than real walnut. The grain is too obscured for my liking. I would pick the middle board in a heartbeat. To me, shellac adds the desired warmth without hiding the character of the wood. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I am not personally offended by anyone coloring woid, even walnut, any way they please. However, the long board in you photo looks more like a piece of laser printed Ikea 'walnut' particle board than real walnut. The grain is too obscured for my liking. I would pick the middle board in a heartbeat. To me, shellac adds the desired warmth without hiding the character of the wood.I'm thinking you're right. The long one does look like cheap flooring rather than the real deal. Flipping the middle and wide over and switching finishes would be interesting to see as they look like totally different boards to start with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I guess for me the long cure time and weeks of stink are worth it...since I'm gonna live with this piece for the rest of my life it seems like a small price to pay. Nothing will ever make walnut look as good as oil or oil-based finishes. That middle piece is the clear winner, head and shoulders over the other two. And that's The TruF. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewyo Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I have to agree with Eric. I don't think you'll "cook" up anything better than that second sample, unless you wipe on some Arm-R... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Cindy Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Middle board is spectacular but I sure encourage your experimentation! I love the richness of the colors, light and dark. I'm thinking dye will even out the colors muddying everything, e.g. the long board, unless it is applied selectively with an artist's brush. Wide board is just, meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat60 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I also vote for the middle board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I like all the test boards. People have been staining walnut and other woods for ever and it just is fashion that dictates what is in vogue. It just so happens that dark wood is out at the moment and natural hues abound. I go around antique stores in the UK and find magnificent pieces of furniture that should be $$$ only costing $ because "they are not in fashion at the moment as they are brown". This includes fine walnut furniture with book matched veneers, rosewood tables with bookmatched tops and magnificent oak furniture with quarter sawn ray flecked panel doors all costing next to nothing because they have been stained dark brown.I blame Ikea - hope that doesn't open a can of works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgaron Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 If using different colors of shellac crosses over into sin territory, then we can keep each other company in tartarus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 MIke - Did you try any air dried with the Waterlox combination you used on the middle board? I ask because the color variation of the air dried stands out in the wide board, but I prefer the pop you get from using Waterlox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 To me, shellac adds the desired warmth without hiding the character of the wood.Yes I'm interested to see how the garnet shellac boards turn out. I guess for me the long cure time and weeks of stink are worth it...since I'm gonna live with this piece for the rest of my life it seems like a small price to pay. Nothing will ever make walnut look as good as oil or oil-based finishes. That middle piece is the clear winner, head and shoulders over the other two. And that's The TruF. Eric I totally agree with you until I had a run of bigger projects. Three tables for the upstairs, three tables for the downstairs, then a large nativity cabinet for a customer. Waterlox Original is really easy to work with but wiping on these projects took a lot time. Waterlox Satin for the final coat is a different story. On aprons and legs you can wipe it on and it looks fine but on a horizontal surface it needs to be brushed or sprayed. When brushing it's almost like shellac - you need to work quickly and get it right as going back over it will change the sheen. Talking with Waterlox they said this is because the flatteners need to stay suspended and overworking it causes problems even though the finish levels out. Then when the projects are done you need to tell the wife and customer not to put anything on them for 30 days while it cures to be safe. Plus three tables in a room will put out more stink than a jewelry box!MIke - Did you try any air dried with the Waterlox combination you used on the middle board? I ask because the color variation of the air dried stands out in the wide board, but I prefer the pop you get from using Waterlox.Micks I totally agree that it wasn't a fair comparison. The Waterlox board had an advantage from the start as the steamed walnut was chocolaty and darker. The wide board was lighter and had red, purple, and silver highlights in it. In time I'll flip the boards over and swap the finishes to compare.One thing is Waterlox with its phenolic resin and tung oil is the darkest varnish on the market. I'm pretty sure the same board with Arm-R-Seal, being a thinned polyurethane, wouldn't be as dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochese Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 That middle board is pure standout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I started 4 more test boards divided in half so 8 more tests going. By the time I figure it out, walnut will be so expensive I won't be able to afford it!Tonight I looked at the wide board by itself and I don't hate it. People say how they love the reds, purples, and silvers that some air dried walnut has and this finish actually preserved some of it. The backside of it is now getting the Waterlox so we'll see how it compares. There is more color in this board then the phone pic shows. Edited August 18, 2015 by estesbubba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Now you're talkin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Alright, I have several more test boards done and here are the results.Left: Waterlox board from above that everyone loved on kiln/steamed walnutRight: Waterlox on top and Oil poly on bottom on air dried walnut (all remaining boards are air dried). Waterlox is a little darker than the oil poly. Left: Garnet shellac with water poly (bottom has first coat of oil poly which is slightly darker)Right: Waterlox top/oil poly bottom Left: Garnet shellac with water polyRight: Waterlox Left: Garnet shellac with water polyRight: Oil poly first coat with water poly (wide board from original post) These are the American Walnut water dye boards with water poly topcoats. From top left going CCW, 1 lb : 12 gallons, 1:16, 1:32, 1:64. These boards are just too monotone for my tastes. I have to say that the garnet shellac with Old Master water-based poly is pretty damn close to the Waterlox finish. A garnet shellac and water poly finish could be completed in half a day. The 3 coats of water poly last night took only 3 hours start to finish with 1.5 hours between coats. The satin finish is glass smooth and actually more consistent than the Waterlox satin.Playing around with test finishes, especially when spraying, is fun and a good learning experience. I think I found a waterborne finish for walnut that I'm happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneymack Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I agree. I think the shellac/ water based poly looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I also agree the shellac board has some nice color. It's a little tough to judge from pictures though...in real life, water-based finishes look so cold and lifeless.Mike, it would help if you could do multiple finish samples out of a single board. There's so much variation in walnut color and texture...it's kind of like doing a science project without a control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I also agree the shellac board has some nice color. It's a little tough to judge from pictures though...in real life, water-based finishes look so cold and lifeless.Mike, it would help if you could do multiple finish samples out of a single board. There's so much variation in walnut color and texture...it's kind of like doing a science project without a control.Eric the garnet shellac gives some depth to the waterborne finish but not as much as the Waterlox. The Waterlox satin actually has 1/3 original mixed in for a specific project and the slightly more sheen adds to the depth. I definitely wouldn't call the shellac board cold and lifeless. I think any satin finish isn't going to have the depth of a higher gloss. Funny you mentioned the variation in both color and texture as I was thinking the same thing when doing the tests. Some air dried boards are shades of brown while others have the red, purple, and silver rainbow. The kiln dried Waterlox board had some tight growth rings which made for some really dark streaks in areas. I will say that spraying is just plain fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPCV_Woodworker Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Any chance you could line them all up at once and number them? I'm having trouble remembering preferences out of pairings... Also - sapwood on a glueline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Any chance you could line them all up at once and number them? I'm having trouble remembering preferences out of pairings... Also - sapwood on a glueline?I can't line them all up because most of the boards have test finishes on both sides. The glued up boards were going to be for a raised dog feeder and the sapwood would have been cut out for bowls - that was until I messed up a measurement. Pretty walnut for test boards though :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPCV_Woodworker Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I can't line them all up because most of the boards have test finishes on both sides. The glued up boards were going to be for a raised dog feeder and the sapwood would have been cut out for bowls - that was until I messed up a measurement. Pretty walnut for test boards though Ah, makes perfect sense now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Mike, it would help if you could do multiple finish samples out of a single board. There's so much variation in walnut color and texture...it's kind of like doing a science project without a control.Went out there this morning and the Waterlox and garnet shellac + WB poly boards actually are a single board cut in half so here ya go:Garnet shellac + WB poly top/Waterlox bottom Any chance you could line them all up at once and number them? I'm having trouble remembering preferences out of pairings...Best I could do...Left: Oil poly top, Waterlox bottomMiddle: Garnet shellac and WB polyRight: Waterlox on kiln/steamedLeft: Garnet shellac and WB polyMiddle: Oil poly with WB poly topcoatsRight: Waterlox on kiln/steamed Here are some closeups of the garnet shellac + WB poly board (right side has oil poly under shellac). IMO it has color and depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Went out there this morning and the Waterlox and garnet shellac + WB poly boards actually are a single board cut in half so here ya go:Garnet shellac + WB poly top/Waterlox bottom Surprisingly similar. I do still feel like the bottom one has a bit more richness and warmth, but it could just be my bias getting in the way of objectivity. You need to do some blind tests on us...and include ARS. You're gonna be like Flexner by the time we're done with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Eric - look at the white walls and you'll notice they get darker as you go down which makes the Waterlox look warmer. In person they are pretty dang close and a non-worker wouldn't be able to tell the difference. ARS would be similar to the Waterlox but not as dark. ARS is a thinned poly varnish with unknown oil which makes it easy to brush or wipe. Waterlox is a thinned phenolic resin varnish with tung oil which makes it the darkest varnish out there and also easy to brush or wipe. I was biased towards Waterlox for 10 years until my wife wanted the bathroom vanity remodeled and I bought the Fuji. Once I started spraying waterbornes and realized all the benefits, my Waterlox started to get lonely on the shelf. Of course waterbornes have the downside of not being warm like oil finishes.When you're ready to play with that Fuji send me a PM and I can share my spraying spreadsheet with you. I've wasted plenty of finish and test boards until I figured everything out. You might like the finish or you might hate it - everyone is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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