Project Vs Tools...

[Tpt life]

Plenty of audiophiles here, but the pattern seems wider than a single pursuit. 

[Immortan D]

Yeah, I confess, I like my shavings more than I like my pieces. And I like my tools a lot more than I like my pieces. In other words, my pieces suck, I know, but they eventually will improve, with better tools of course.

[davewyo]

I think it's like that for almost every endeavor/hobby/activity that I've ever done.

There are three to four levels of enthusiasm one can bring.

1. Neophyte; with boundless curiosity

2. Serious participant; with a lust for more experience and knowledge

3. So-Called "expert"; with an all-encompassing passion and "tool kit" developed by actual experience

4. Obsessive; who dissects the minutia of the endeavor, which can be fruitful for some and a dead-end for others

One can skip or combine any of the steps.

Ideally, the goal is to become a modern-day Leonardo DaVinci, obsessed with everything and good at it too...

[Beechwood Chip]

When I was a kid, I collected fishing tackle.  Occasionally, some adult would take me fishing, but I never caught anything and I didn't really enjoy it.  Some people collect stamps or coins; I collected fishing tackle.

I don't think there's any "ideal goal" for the hobbyist.  If someone wants to collect tools, or build the perfect shop, or endlessly refine their dust collector, or just watch woodworking videos and chat on the forum... hey, it's their money and their time; if that makes them happy, who am I to judge.  That's what makes it a hobby

A lot of hobbies can become contests, where people who grow tomatoes or make chili decide to have contest to decide who's the "best".  And that ends up defining, for those people, what makes something "better".

Nothing wrong with that; contests can be a lot of fun, and can help motivate people.  But I'm glad we don't get into that sort of thing here, very much.  Unless someone wants to.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Beechwood Chip

[Pete Staehling]

Having all the best of the all the gear and tools in my work and my hobbies isn't what floats my boat.  For me most things in life are about "doing stuff" rather than "having stuff".  It is about the process and the finished product.  When it comes to the tools and gear, I strive to find the items that support the activity, but they aren't an end in and of themselves.  I am a big believer in "good enough is good enough" when it comes to tools and gear.

I actually enjoy making do and creating a fine finished work with fewer and less expensive tools.

[Tom Cancelleri]

I find when a tool is enjoyable to use it makes the hobby that much more enjoyable and fun. My second time around with buying tools I went a little nuts and bought the best of everything (within reason) and I enjoy using them as much as I enjoy having them. Knowing you have the right tool for the job you wish to accomplish encourages stepping out of your comfort zone. In the past I've often used the wrong tool for the job and while I got some less then favorable results it was a learning experience. Oddly enough some of my best turning was done on a small lathe with less than desirable turning tools. Bottom line is no matter what you make, as long as you're having fun and enjoying the process.

 

Just because I can't resist the urge to post this

[TerryMcK]

A guy I know has top end hi fi equipment, special cables, fancy CD player, high end turntable to spin his vinyl, massive speakers, water cooled amplifiers. He's spent 10s of thousands on his rig through the years.

He put on a record (yup the black spinny thing) of a band called Portishead when I last went to his house. All I heard was the dust scratches from the record, the music content IMHO was crap and sounded much too trebley. Every record he put on was that way. He says you don't need tone controls in circuit as that distorts the music.

I got into my car and turned on my stereo and fed my iPod into it - blissful scratch free, properly equalized (yes I know that it is compressed but I don't care anymore) music,  - to my ears at least.

[Eric.]

I like both the doing and the having.  The doing is the important part but the having makes it more fun.  Without the doing, the having makes no sense.  I've never really understood collectors or what they get out of having a huge pile of anything that isn't used.  But that's me.

[Guest]

That is so true.   I have spent my fair share on audio equipment but that was to pursue a singular goal of getting a set up that reproduced a full range of sound at a low volume (which is actually quite difficult).   I have hearing damage from my high school years playing in metal bands and loud music is really painful.   

I do like vinyl records.   I like the low magnetic hum.   I don't the mind scratches.   But mostly vinyl forces you to make the music the center of your attention.   One side of an LP is 20 or 30 minutes max so listening to LPs becomes an activity rather than just background noise.  When I play my records I am reading the liner notes, deciding which record to play next, maybe doing internet research on the artist.   Unlike mp3s, which will play on shuffle mode forever, vinyl forces you to stop and smell the roses. 

Terry, unlike your friend I do use equalization.  In fact some records were mixed with the presumption that you would play them back with equalization.   Some preamps have this built in, others don't.  But knowingly or not your friend should be using equalization.   If not it will sound like crap, $1000 cables and all.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

Edited September 30, 2015 by Guest

[Llama]

As a person with many hobbies I can say with 100% certainty, that you must spend every single dollar you have buying the best you can afford.

I remember my first obsession, It was baseball cards. One day after school my dad was waiting at home with several large boxes of cards still in the packs. We must have spent days if not weeks going through all of them. First organizing them by team, then by players name and finally by full set order. I vividly remember one specific card we came across. It was worth $1, according to the current Beckett. Yeah, a no google back then! We couldn't believe it. Most of the other cards listed for 5-30 cents each, so finding one that was worth a buck was a big deal. Not that $1 is alot of money, but in comparison.... This MUST be a great card. As such, it got it's own special case. Remember the hard single card protectors. Not the flimsy plastic ones.

Then it was comic books. Pretty much the same thing. We'd go to the comic book store at least once every two weeks (if my chores were done). We stumbled on the Crisis on Infinite Earths series... Was a high dollar set back then, and still is. I believe there were 12 issues. We had most of them, but for some reason never got ahold of one of them. Just so you all know, I now have them all and they're graded. Have to have the best... 

I also have an unhealthy obsession with Spider Man. I go through phases with going on ebay and buying Spider Man comics so I can complete my collection. My goal is to own the first 100 of them, then the next 100 I'm sure... See that's the thing with collections. It never stops!! As soon as I get the first 100, I'm sure I'm going to replace some of the lesser quality books.

Then I got into playing pool. Goodness gracious! The money I've spent on pool cues over the years. I had 8 high end cues at one time, not counting the constant rotating stock of cues I was flipping. Then I had to get high end cases for them. Then I realized it was silly to have that many, and I now have 3 cues. One really nice one, a jump cue and a beater. Oh, and I have two others on order. I am not a patient man, and waiting lists suck!

Then it was playing guitar. Playing guitar really started when I joined the Army and I realized that other people played, and I had a natural ability for it... So, like any other Army guy I went down to the local pawn store and bought a guitar. It was a red Ibanez RG Prestige. Very nice guitar. Loved it! Then I had several Gibsons, SG's and Les Pauls, then Fenders and a PRS. I had a few guitars at any given time. Then I got into playing bass, sold the guitars and bought a fretless Warwick and never looked back! Then the bass collecting took hold. I had 4 Warwicks at one time and a pedalboard that would make any guitar player jealous, just silly really... But I love collecting, and can't stop myself.

Now I'm into watches (again)... I recently bought a very nice Bell & Ross BR01-96. It's a killer watch and I love it very much. But, I'm still looking to get another one. It will never stop. I have a sickness.

Ah, now on to woodworking... we all know that part all too well. Gotta get that next thing that will make my work better! Right?

What's the point of this? Well, I guess I'm a collector at heart. I can't stop at one nice thing and be happy with it. Many guitar players would love to have a Les Paul or PRS. But once I had them, I had to get something else. It never satisfied my appetite for MORE. I pretty much always had better gear than most other people, and that wasn't what drove me. I don't get into competing over who has the nicest bass, or pool cue, or hand plane... Yes, I love the compliments I get on them. But, that's not the motivation for buying them. I truly appreciate finely made things. And that is a life long pursuit. 

[Immortan D]

Tool collecting and Woodworking, two hobbies that can coexist. Now judging other people... I don't think that's a hobby, more like a bad habit.

[TerryMcK]

 But knowingly or not your friend should be using equalization.   If not it will sound like crap, $1000 cables and all.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

Absolutely. Well said Mike. It was painful to listen to his gear. I too like reading liner notes and still have vinyl but nothing to play them on so play CDs and strain my eyes to see the notes  . I also listen to albums as intended by the artist and never shuffle.

[collinb]

Yeah, I confess, I like my shavings more than I like my pieces. And I like my tools a lot more than I like my pieces. In other words, my pieces suck, I know, but they eventually will improve, with better tools of course.

I like my shavings as much as my pieces.  The shavings are either compost sawdust or tinder/kindling for campfires.  There's nothing like tissue-thin planer shavings to get a fire started.

I do like vinyl records.   I like the low magnetic hum.   I don't the mind scratches.   But mostly vinyl forces you to make the music the center of your attention.   One side of an LP is 20 or 30 minutes max so listening to LPs becomes an activity rather than just background noise.  When I play my records I am reading the liner notes, deciding which record to play next, maybe doing internet research on the artist.   Unlike mp3s, which will play on shuffle mode forever, vinyl forces you to stop and smell the roses. 

Terry, unlike your friend I do use equalization.  In fact some records were mixed with the presumption that you would play them back with equalization.   Some preamps have this built in, others don't.  But knowingly or not your friend should be using equalization.   If not it will sound like crap, $1000 cables and all.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

All phono inputs are equalized, whether MM or MC.  Only line-level is not and that is only used for the old ceramic phono cartridges which are virtually extinct.

My system is typical medium-range though the speakers are on the better side.  Yet the difference between digital and vinyl is quite evident.  It come when I listen to brass or organ. (Remember Phantom of the Opera" just a few years ago?) 

A couple of years ago I got my first good speakers (Wharfdale W90D).  Though they're not considered "great" I could hear that the weakness in my system was the amp.  It is easy to listen too closely.  Like photography where one can become a pixel-peeper and get all-consumed about long lens fringing yet never make a print.

I'm starting to feel the same way about my tools.  A few good ones is better than a bunch of mediocre ones.  But even an average tool kept in prime condition can perform as well as an upper-end model (like a nice plane).  As long as I treat the stuff well I can get a good product.  So, yes, I listen to my tools like I listen to my stereo and my lenses. Notice every nuance and keep things tuned up and cleaned up for maximum performance. 

What this boils down to is marketing (whether formal or informal, selling or buying):

Our wood products are first sensory products, just like photographs and music.  They are secondarily functional.  People will almost always purchase a better-looking piece than something less when the price is the same.

[Immortan D]

Been thinking about the Alan Parsons phrase and the title and direction of this thread, "Project vs Tools", and I think they are completely unrelated.

Alan Parsons just doesn't like people saying "that stereo kicks a$$!!" when listening to his music;. "Alan Parson rocks!!" is what he is expecting instead... the same way a painter would hate people commenting about the picture frame instead of the painting... it's about his artistic ego, pretty much that's all.

[Tpt life]

That that does not matter a bit to me.  I could not care less whose ego is being stroked by the original quote. I admit that wood working is not all about projects for me. Some of the project is restoring old tools. When they pull shavings or sculpt wood, the experience does not always lead to a project. As a partial audiophile, I can get caught up in producing as lifelike a sound a s possible to the exclusion of the music that I passionately pursue. This was more about the dichotomy of motivation with some great follow up discussion. This is not to argue with your observation about Parson. This is more to try to place a value on it. Just food for thought. 

[Eric.]

Been thinking about the Alan Parsons phrase and the title and direction of this thread, "Project vs Tools", and I think they are completely unrelated.

Alan Parsons just doesn't like people saying "that stereo kicks a$$!!" when listening to his music;. "Alan Parson rocks!!" is what he is expecting instead... the same way a painter would hate people commenting about the picture frame instead of the painting... it's about his artistic ego, pretty much that's all.

I don't take it that way at all.  I think what he's saying is that the music itself should be the primary driving force, not the equipment it's being played on.  He's saying that people aren't LISTENING, they're only HEARING.  The music itself is going right over their heads...it's only sound they're consuming.

Which I think is analogous to woodworkers who buy lots of tools but hardly build anything or put effort into refining their skills.  They're interested in things, not actions.  It lacks substance.  It lacks meaning.

[Chet]

I like both the doing and the having.  The doing is the important part but the having makes it more fun.  Without the doing, the having makes no sense.  I've never really understood collectors or what they get out of having a huge pile of anything that isn't used.  But that's me.

Years back I worked with a guy that would get interested in some activity and then go out and purchase the best gear for that activity, scuba diving, water skiing, snow skiing, backpacking and on and on.  Once he had acquired all the gear he would hardly use it and then move on to the next thing.  I guess he was a collector of sorts but the fact that he never really used the stuff always puzzled me.

I think Eric's comment "The doing is the important patriot the having makes it more fun" is on the money.  In "95" I completely remodeled our kitchen with a bunch of tools I don't even own anymore, I can only imagine how much more fun it would be at this point with the tools I now have in my possession.

[Llama]

I'll just leave this here:

[Immortan D]

I don't take it that way at all.  I think what he's saying is that the music itself should be the primary driving force, not the equipment it's being played on.  He's saying that people aren't LISTENING, they're only HEARING.  The music itself is going right over their heads...it's only sound they're consuming.

Which I think is analogous to woodworkers who buy lots of tools but hardly build anything or put effort into refining their skills.  They're interested in things, not actions.  It lacks substance.  It lacks meaning.

I don't see the analogy. Not that I don't somewhat agree with you in the terms of your equation.

I see this Alan Parsons quote like nothing more than an acknowledgement of his own failure as an artist to send the message he meant to send. He, being an audio engineer, managed to privilege sound over music, but apparently that's not what he really wanted (?).  Most people would listen to Kraftwerk or Alan Parsons to test their equipment. The same people would listen to CCR and enjoy it with disregard for the equipment.

Finally, I don't see woodworking as a source for meaning or substance. That's because I'm the technical type of person, not an artist. Just a DIY person looking for opportunities to use his tools and learn something in the process.

[Coop]

Mel, Can I interest you in a very nice but not yet complete, condom tin collection?

[Eric.]

 

I see this Alan Parsons quote like nothing more than an acknowledgement of his own failure as an artist to send the message he meant to send. He, being an audio engineer, managed to privilege sound over music, but apparently that's not what he really wanted (?).

That's a great point.  I'm not a Parsons fan so I missed that element.  But I agree.  Wants his cake and eat it too.  I do find his stuff is pretty lacking in the content department...not much more to listen to than sound.

[Guest]

i guess audiophile is a bit of a loaded term.... I suppose Parsons is using it to mean "poser" or "wannabe".  

[Tpt life]

Maybe. Lover of sound does not equate with appreciators of music. Many audiophiles could be chasing theatrical movie sound. 

[Eric.]

That's a great point.  I'm not a Parsons fan so I missed that element.  But I agree.  Wants his cake and eat it too.  I do find his stuff is pretty lacking in the content department...not much more to listen to than sound.

I should have added...I still agree with his message in general though...he's just probably not the best messenger.  Would have been better if Dylan said it...everything is heavier when Dylan says it.

[Chet]

Or even Clapton.