Gary Gilbert Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I have been doing a lot of reading on joinery other then normal youtube wood works i notice people useing the Japanese ones instead. Was wondering how many people have them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 You could start a poll to find out...You could refine the results by breaking it down by bench, paring, mortise, etc...I've got Western-style mortise, dovetail and bench...I've got Japanese-style paring... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 You could start a poll to find out...You could refine the results by breaking it down by bench, paring, mortise, etc...I've got Western-style mortise, dovetail and bench...I've got Japanese-style paring...I tried to do a poll but it messed up on me. Thank you for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Trip, why did you choose the Japanese paring as opposed to the Western? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Confluence of edge and application... The keen edge on a good Japanese push chisel is very well suited to paring operations... The same edge is somewhat brittle and less well suited to bench and mortising applications in dense hardwoods.. In other words, the harder I whack a chisel, the more breakdown takes precedence and I move to the D2 side of the ledger... Edited October 22, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 on one of the videos I say that they use 2 metals and fuse it so it's stronger and keeps a edge better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Confluence of edge and application... The keen edge on a good Japanese push chisel is very well suited to paring operations... The same edge is somewhat brittle and less well suited to bench and mortising applications in dense hardwoods.. In other words, the harder I whack a chisel, the more breakdown takes precedence and I move to the D2 side of the ledger... Why not A2 as it has much better impact resistance than D2? The carbides formed in D2 seem less important for cutting wood than metals as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 on one of the videos I say that they use 2 metals and fuse it so it's stronger and keeps a edge better.Paring chisels usually have a lower grind angle - around 20 degrees, where bench chisels are tylically 25 or so. The lower the angle the weaker the edge and greater tendency to chip, especially in harder steel like that used in Japanese chisels. Whacking a paring chisel would break down the edge pretty quickly.I also have both and use both. My Japanese chisels do seem to take a sharper edge, but if I do chip one, it's a lot more work to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 ==>My Japanese chisels do seem to take a sharper edge, but if I do chip one, it's a lot more work to fix it.That's the upside and downside in one sentence... I had really nice sets of Japanese-style bench and mortising chisels... At some point, I chipped one edge too many just eBayed the lot... Decided on the spot to go Western for striking applications... After all, how sharp does a mortiser have to be (unless you regularly work desert hardwoods)? ==>Why not A2 as it has much better impact resistance than D2?It's more about toughness... A2 is a good compromise between a superior edge former (say O1) and much tougher metallurgies. A D2 edge will take a lot more abuse than A2... There are folks experimenting with even tougher metallurgies for working really nasty species (D2S, M42, etc). It's all a balance -- there is no perfect steel for every application. Tool makers balance cost against the properties they desire (and sometimes what's 'hot' in the desired marketplace)... D2 is great for mortisers, but not bench chisels... A2 is great for bench chisels, but not for paring chisels... It's about matching the metallurgy to the application (until the Marketing Dept get's involved)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 ==>Why not A2 as it has much better impact resistance than D2?It's more about toughness... A2 is a good compromise between a superior edge former (say O1) and much tougher metallurgies. A D2 edge will take a lot more abuse than A2... There are folks experimenting with even tougher metallurgies for working really nasty species (D2S, M42, etc). It's all a balance -- there is no perfect steel for every application. Tool makers balance cost against the properties they desire (and sometimes what's 'hot' in the desired marketplace)... D2 is great for mortisers, but not bench chisels... A2 is great for bench chisels, but not for paring chisels... It's about matching the metallurgy to the application (until the Marketing Dept get's involved)...The thing is that this is exactly the oposite of why we choose to use A2 or D2 at work. Not this is in metal stamping but still. We use A2 in general but D2 in die cutters and such because the carbides give it much better abrasion resistance not impact resistance. But if you want impact resistance you go with A2 and not D2 and that is true of every testing protocol I can see.That is what I am finding odd, that the traits being associated with a given steel seem to be directly at odds with how those traits are classed in any other context I see these steels being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 see now i feel more lost with the a2 d2.. i thinking i reading a game of battle ship.. hey Turtle i see you not far from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) ==>That is what I am finding odd, that the traits being associated with a given steel seem to be directly at odds with how those traits are classed in any other context I see these steels being used.Different applications -- apples to oranges... Always remember, it's not just the metallurgy, but how it's worked to form the tool... Add the application's cutting geometry and you may get a few surprises... If you want info on metallurgy as it applies to woodworking, checkout Ron Hock's Blog: https://hocktools.wordpress.com/ ==>i feel more lost with the a2 d2Just two of the hundreds (thousands?) of metallurgies available... There are around a half-dozen commonly used in handtools: O1, W1/2, A2, PMV-11, D2, laminated Shirogami, laminated Aogami (#1, #2) and a few others... Mfgs (read as Marketing Departments) are chasing the 'next steel' by looking at the M and F series... As soon as they 'discover' it, suddenly A2 & PMV-11 will be deemed 'obsolete' by the talking heads --- quickly followed by a chisel bonanza on eBay...Stationary tools (and many turning tools) tend to use one of the HSS metallurgies and/or carbide.You can read about the characteristics of each as they apply to woodworking on Hock's blog... Edited October 22, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderingturtle Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 ==>That is what I am finding odd, that the traits being associated with a given steel seem to be directly at odds with how those traits are classed in any other context I see these steels being used.Different applications -- apples to oranges... Always remember, it's not just the metallurgy, but how it's worked to form the tool... Add the application's cutting geometry and you may get a few surprises... If you want info on metallurgy as it applies to woodworking, checkout Ron Hock's Blog: https://hocktools.wordpress.com/ ==>i feel more lost with the a2 d2Just two of the hundreds (thousands?) of metallurgies available... There are around a half-dozen commonly used in handtools: O1, W1/2, A2, PMV-11, D2, laminated Shirogami, laminated Aogami (#1, #2) and a few others... Mfgs (read as Marketing Departments) are chasing the 'next steel' by looking at the M and F series... As soon as they 'discover' it, suddenly A2 & PMV-11 will be deemed 'obsolete' by the talking heads --- quickly followed by a chisel bonanza on eBay...Stationary tools (and many turning tools) tend to use one of the HSS metallurgies and/or carbide.You can read about the characteristics of each as they apply to woodworking on Hock's blog...Thousands at least. In part because even identical metalurgies are commonly given brand names by different manufacturers. I found this interesting. My base thoughts would be that CPM 3V would be good for chisels at it can take a beating and this article seems to sugest it might do well though they probably made it softer than needed.http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels.htmlI doubt I would want anything made with CPM 10V. That stuff is such a pain to grind and sharpen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 ==>That stuff is such a pain to grind and sharpenYes, that's a factor that I forgot to mention... And it's a big factor to boot... Hobbyist woodworkers are not machine shops... There are many good metallurgies that would make great chisels or plane irons, but would be near impossible for the typical end-user to maintain... The new generation of ceramic-matrix and magnesia-matrix waterstones will allow D2, M2, etc into more mainstream woodworking... My set of pigstickers would be a real pain to sharpen without magnesia-matrix stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) The Japanese chisels are nice, however I'm judging that on owning only one, this one http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Fujikawa-Professional-Oire-Nomi-Japanese-Chisel-12mm.html . There are much better out there but they have a nice feel. All of my other chisels are western style and the finest are the old cast steel one. You are welcome to you FR55-))V steel I don't think it matters a great deal on steel, for mortising I like regular vintage carbon steel. Edited October 22, 2015 by G S Haydon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 ==>for mortising I like regular vintage carbon steelFor mortising, you could [almost] get away with whacking a sharpened screwdriver...Nothing wrong with high carbon steel --- like I said, now that A2&PMV-11 are 'hot', the others are 'obsolete'... Give it another five years -- you'll be seeing eBay auctions for 'obsolete' A2&PMV-11... Product churn is inherent in the tool business... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 This is a comparison of 4 chisel steels when chopping (PM-V11, A2, White Steel, O1):http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.htmlThe PM-V11 and the White Steel stand out head and shoulders above all else. But these are bench chisels. Morticing hard Aussie wood with vintage laminated carbon steel mortice chisels is a very viable alternative. Higher bevel angles (35 degrees) in A2 helps tremendously. Regards from PerthDerek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 This is a comparison of 4 chisel steels when chopping (PM-V11, A2, White Steel, O1):http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.htmlThe PM-V11 and the White Steel stand out head and shoulders above all else. But these are bench chisels. Morticing hard Aussie wood with vintage laminated carbon steel mortice chisels is a very viable alternative. Higher bevel angles (35 degrees) in A2 helps tremendously. Regards from PerthDerekWow that was a nice Review thanks for the input.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Incidentally, someone should change the title to "Japanese vs Western Chisels".Regards from PerthDerek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Agreed and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Gilbert Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 my bad did not think of it like that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Ignore this as the ramblings of an over thinker...The irony for me is that Canada is one of the Americas, and many western chisels are now made in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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