MartinN Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hi Everyone New to wood working and thus this is my first time using Arm R Seal. I have had a hard time getting it to go on evenly (I had a much easier time with Watco brush on lacquer which I used on the last project). Part of this issue might be the Wisconsin weather, so after feed back to my previous thread I'm going go to this it a little (10 %) and bring it inside to dry after applying it in the garage. I've attached a photo of the defects I'm getting are these brush strokes or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 With limited experience, I would say you over brushed it, too many brush strokes after it was applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Not sure if you overworked the finish, but you've got far too much on there...Brushing lacquer is a brush on evenly, let self level and dry -- no wipe-off...ARS is an apply thin, let sit a few minutes, then wipe-off all remaining. The result should be a very thin coating... No drips, no pooling, no layer of finish, etc. You know how you clean your kitchen counter top with a rag? It's like that... Just a damp rag to apply the soap/water, then wipe dry... The 'dry' isn't really dry. If you look at it in a raking light, it'll still be a bit wet until it evaporates leaving a dry counter top... It's like that with wiping varnish... As you gain experience, you can leave a bit more on... But there is a critical limit where it won't dry properly -- which you have crossed in the above photo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinN Posted November 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Ah yikes. I was assuming it went on pretty thick based on the can't directions to use a foam brush and only 3 coats to finish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 With ARS, thick is bad...It's a wipe-back process -- thin coats are the name of the game... Apply wet, let sit a few, wipe-back...As you gain experience, you can leave a bit more on... But it's a fine line between 'a bit' and 'screwed-the-pooch'. Let's just say you found the latter...From here, let it cure (being that thick, it'll take a couple of days) and sand it back -- you don't have to go to wood, just sand the high spots until the coating is even... Then apply a thin coat and wipe back... You're lucky -- it's a flat surface... Had this being a molding...Practice on some scrap while your project cures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Yeah, everything that Trip said. Also, use a folded up cotton cloth (old t-shirts are perfect) instead of a foam brush. The brush holds way too much finish and floods too easily.The key...thin coats. I like to dilute my final coat 50/50 with mineral spirits to make sure it self-levels perfectly and leaves nary a streak. Done right, ARS will leave a perfectly smooth and streak-free finish.Side note...the glossier the finish you use, the more challenging ARS becomes. A monkey can make satin look good...gloss is a bit trickier.Edit...just to clarify...I do not wipe back ARS. I apply light coats with even strokes and leave the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 hhh - I don't think ARS is meant to be wiped off like a Danish oil. It is a thinned varnish and meant to be built up like Waterlox or poly. I do agree that it should be put on with thin coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I've used that wipe on wipe off method with Danish oil but when I use ARS, it seems that it starts to set almost immediately. But I'm low man on the totum pole when it comes to finishes. Before I started hanging out here, a finish was latex enamel ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Love that Zebra... ARS is meant to be wiped off like a Danish oil --- just not with too much pressure. You don't want to induce streaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Love that Zebra... ARS is meant to be wiped off like a Danish oil --- just not with too much pressure. You don't want to induce streaks.You just up'd my ante! Thanks for the pointers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 The wipe-off is the tricky part -- that's what Eric's alluding to... You CAN apply a super thin coat and just let it absorb/dry... But you've got to have your game brush on... It's a high-risk, high-reward strategy... I've executed maybe twenty to thirty pieces with ARS and I'm just able to pull that off rather consistently... But I still keep the clean rag handy... The key is even thin wet, no streaks, no dry spots... And practice, practice, practice.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 And the can instructions say do not thin. Obviously, that's not the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm also in the wipe off clan. I have tried leaving a very coat on, and it actually settled quite well although it did take a bit longer to fully cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I've done many pieces with ARS using the wipe on thinly, stand awhile, wipe any excess off method and it works fine. With practise you can minimise waste, essentially removing solids you have paid for, in the wipe off stage by applying thin coats initially.OP you had put far too much on. Although you can use a foam brush try a little less varnish on it - a lot of people (myself included) advocate the use of a lint free cotton rag, made up almost like a French polishing rubber (google it), to apply ARS or similar wiping varnishes. Exit the shop quickly to ensure you don't have too much stray dust settling and leave overnight. Dust nibs can be removed easily but it's far better to minimize those nibs in the first place by leaving the shop or finishing room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) ==>And the can instructions say do not thinSome do thin... I've never seen the need -- get more solids in fewer coats... As a side note: it's generally better to follow the instructions. The guys in the lab know about their finish then we do... BTW: there's the instructions on the can... Then there's the full instructions on the DFU/TDS posted on the mfg's website... It's better to download the full instructions and follow them. Edited November 30, 2015 by hhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I've found the more I work with ARS the less need I have for wiping back. I think it's a bit easier to not wipe the final coat then the first few that are still absorbing into the wood. Hence usually I will wipe the first couple than try to avoid wiping on the next coat or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 ==>I've found the more I work with ARS the less need I have for wiping back.That's typical... As you gain experience, you get more of a feel for the application technique. But you need to keep that clean cloth handy -- just in case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 And the can instructions say do not thin. Obviously, that's not the case?I've never been good about following rules.To clarify, I only thin the final coat. Thinning any previous coats would only be a waste of time since you're trying to build a slight film. The reason I thin the final coat is so it self-levels more easily therefore reducing the risk of streaks, and it dries more quickly reducing the amount of dust nibs. I'm not saying it's right or wrong or you should or shouldn't do it...it's just the system that I've developed and it works well for me. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 A bit of a non-sequitur...GF positions Seal-a-Cell and Arm-R-Seal as a two stage finish...I'll not posit the advantages of using both or that SaC is just thinned ArS or it's just a marketing ploy... I'm not a Polymer Chemist and have never analyzed at the TDS to see for myself...But, I do apply SaC for the first coat or two, then two coats of ArS.2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 But, I do apply SaC for the first coat or two, then two coats of ArS. Interesting. What's the rationale behind that? SaC soaks deeper into the fibers because it's thinner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 ==>SaC soaks deeper into the fibers because it's thinner?Yes.Very useful to apply a dark NGR, then SaC to carry it deep and pop tiger. It's best method I've found... SaC may be thinned ArS... Who knows... I don't have a mass-spec in my basement and the Quality guy would get pissed if I had it done at work.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcK Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I did the seal a cell/arm r seal process on my last project (the bedside tables/nightstands thread). I followed the instructions from the GF website recommending this as their preferred method.I pore sealed the sapele with a proprietry pore sealer before the first SaC coat. Then I followed the usual process of lightly sanding between coats of ArS over the top. I couldn't see much difference between using ArS on it's own (after pore sealing of course) and the GF preferred method.The only reason I used SaC first of all is I'm running put of ArS and it can't be obtained anymore in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Terry, how did you apply these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinN Posted December 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thank you everyone for the feedback. I just tried reapplying in a much thinner coat. Just to be clear, are you guys still only doing 3 coats (as per the can) with thin coats? I read one thread where someone was putting 7 coats on. If you are doing that, does that mean you are spending 14 days applying ARS? (7 coats on each side, alternating which side is on the bottom while drying) and then another week for it to cure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinN Posted December 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Thank you everyone for the feedback. I just tried reapplying in a much thinner coat. Just to be clear, are you guys still only doing 3 coats (as per the can) with thin coats? I read one thread where someone was putting 7 coats on. If you are doing that, does that mean you are spending 14 days applying ARS? (7 coats on each side, alternating which side is on the bottom while drying) and then another week for it to cure? Second question, does anyone have a readily available photo showing a correct ARS application from close up? I always imagine poly as looking like wood behind a layer of plastic/glass. I suspect this may be a result of me using far too much... This stuff isn't easy to learn when you are trying to figure it out on your own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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