andrew-in-austin Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I noticed something odd yesterday, a layer of dust around my cyclone dust collector. I have the Clear-vue cyclone, and first thought that I must have not caulked all of the joints. So I did a thorough inspection but could not find any leaks. Then I notice that one of my filters (I use GE HEPA 18" D x 20" L from Oneida, p/n FCS182000H) had a stronger current of air in one spot. That spot was also quite discolored So, I remove the two filters and inspected them. Honestly I cannot find anything like a big gaping hole. but there must be something allowing the dust to go through. Here's a couple pictures of the outside, mounted on my cyclone (I mount them right off the blower housing, horizontally, to avoid the very short radius 90-degree elbow used with most Clear-vue cyclones, and it also save me a lot of space): Here's a better shot of the outside of one filter: And here's the inside: I am concerned this "fraying" of the filter media might be the cause for the leaks. Has anyone seen anything like this? The second filter does not have a huge discolored spot on the filter, but I do see a couple very tiny (like 1/2" D) spots, so that filter is probably bad as well. I will need to get new filters, and very much doubt I will get these again. Probably look to WynnEnv for a couple "nano" filters. The reason I got these was that they are the only ones I could find that truly filter at HEPA levels. Obviously they are not doing that This did get me thinking, it's possible that any filter could get damaged by wood chips or other materials that for whatever reason, go into the blower and to the filters instead of the cyclone and trash bin. It might help to have some kind of protective layer before the filters. I am thinking something like a layer of acoustical foam on top of the filter media. Might make cleaning the filters a lot easier as well (remove foam, wash, dry, and reinstall). And before anyone suggests, no, I cannot go without filters and run the exhaust outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 Filters wear out with regular use. Generally, an active hobby shop should change filters every five years, give or take. A light commercial shop every three, give or take... YMMV. That’s why you add a magnehelic to monitor filter performance... If you overflow the system and force chips into the filter, then filters go quickly... You can generally get away with that once, but usually your filter is shot if you do it again... That’s why you add a bin sensor... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew-in-austin Posted January 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 I have only used this system for a few hours, enough for 3 bin changes, but I did get some chips in the filters recently. I had the bin fill up and in to the bottom of the cyclone about 8". I guess that's when this happened. There was not that much chips in the filters (maybe a quart or less), but I guess enough. I am surprised how delicate the filters are. Sad thing is I have a bin sensor, but have not installed it yet. Costly mistake. I still want to investigate lining the filters with foam, for both protection and sound attenuation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 24, 2016 Report Share Posted January 24, 2016 ==>I still want to investigate lining the filters with foam, for both protection and sound attenuation. Oneida (and many others) sell a baffle db reducer. It's a foam insert between the exhaust plenum and the filter cartridge. Think it's about $50. Cuts a few db and prevents chips from entering the cartridge filter... I've got one... Works. ==>I did get some chips in the filters Yea, chips can be really hard on the filter media... Sometimes it kills the filter, sometimes not... Sort of like dropping a chisel onto a concrete floor... Sometimes you get lucky, but most of the time it just seems like you can't catch a break... ==>Sad thing is I have a bin sensor, but have not installed it yet. Costly mistake. My setup overflowed once --- and HAD a bin sensor installed -- it failed to activate... At over $700 (plus shipping) for each cartridge, I now have two bin sensors installed... Update: Found my Oneida order, the insert is called a "Filter Silencer - Drip-in". Part Number: BSC180000. $38. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Trip Posted January 26, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 This issue has been gnawing at me... I don't like problems that gnaw... I've never used that particular stack, but I've used plenty of others... That being said, it's too much damage for just one small amount of chips... One thing that kills the filter stack in this way is a leak in the lower cyclone housing and/or bin assembly... Do you have a smoke stick? Now, before you say you can find the leaks without using smoke -- you can't... I run a smoke test once a year and ALWAYS find at least one leak -- usually three (mostly around blast gates)... But sometimes around the cyclone/bin assembly itself... Note: I never suspect the leaks I find... I use this: http://www.mcmaster.com/#4101t5/=10uonb0 It's kind of overkill, but will last you forever... The advantage is you can use it for five minutes to find the leaks, extinguish the smoke and restart it after the repair... Many less expensive sticks can't be re-lit -- or just outright suck -- hummmm... When you get the chance, put a pressure sensor at the exhaust plenum... It's a good way to monitor throughput... I check mine when I empty the bin -- can be surprised what you find... Found some dentures once... Good luck... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Does the filter have one of those flapper cleaners? I'm leary of those & can't see how they would not damage the edges of the pleats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew-in-austin Posted January 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 I don't have any cleaning flappers. I am still surprised at how quickly these crapped out. I did have a piece of plastic get in the filters once, and perhaps that wreaked havoc on the filters, but seems unlikely. If these filters are this sensitive to chips, how long could they possibly last in a non-cyclone system? An hour?!? As for a leak, you are right, hhh, I really should get the smoke stick. I can't say for sure if I have a leak, but I do have a very nice quality "bin", a 6mm thick aluminum 160 quart stock pot (it's a beast), so I don't think that part is leaking. The bin is sealed with a MDF cap which has a foam weather seal. If I do have a leak, I suspect it is at the MDF cap or the hose connection between the bin and cyclone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Most bins themselves don't leak, it's the through-penetrations. Bin sensors, hose attachments, top attachment, etc... Also the connection from the bin to the lower cyclone unit -- that pipe is notorious for leaks -- you torque it every time you empty the bin... I'm not familiar with that stack -- it's new to Oneida. I'm not sure who makes it... But the filter pleats are very susceptible to damage from the inside -- chips, dentures, whatever... Check for leaks so it doesn't get any worse... Assuming you don't want to drop $400 on a new stack... I've seen a thread on repairing the pleating from chip damage -- can't think where -- sawmillcreak, lj, don't know... You'll have to look for it -- I registered that the thread existed, but didn't read for content... One other point -- the HEPA coated filters are great, but a bit less robust then spun poly canisters (have had both)... The HEPA traps finer duct particles, but it's more sensitive to damage - and more expensive to replace... But HEPA e/PTFE addresses the caking issue, so that's big... The other way to damage a HEPA filter is with compressed air... Much internet knowledge is based on Nano, Cel/Poly and SpunPoly, et al cartridges... You see YouTube videos of folks banging them against the floor, washing them with hoses, using compressed air, etc -- I saw one using a pressure washer!... You've got to be really careful with compressed air around the HEPA pleating. You just might end-up with damage that looks exactly like yours... Hummmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estesbubba Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 So how do you use the smoke stick to detect leaks? Do you just turn the cyclone on and put it by a machine with its blast gate open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 26, 2016 Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 Run system, one tool at a time, one blast gate at a time wand the smoke from the tool DC inlet to the trunk... Cycle blast gate. Many leaks are in/around gate connections. Run system with two farthest blast gates open. Wand the trunk... Run the system with two largest blast gates open. Wand the cyclone, bin, exhaust and filter... Run system with all blast gates closed. Wand all gates. Fix all leaks. Wait 24hrs. Repeat until all leaks fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew-in-austin Posted January 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2016 FWIW these filters are made by GE and they claim you can wash them. I have never washed them or even cleaned them at all by any means. Maybe I got a bad batch. Or maybe something rattled around in that filter. I very much doubt any vender is willing to take a filter back, so I will probably be dropping $400 on a new stack of Nano filters from Wynn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Before you eat the filters... Send the photos to Oneida... Who knows, maybe it's a known mfg defect... The odds are, you won't see a dime... But ten minutes and an 800 number may save you $400... Kind of like dropping a chisel onto the concrete floor... For some reason that defies both physics and statistics, it's 99% chipped edge... But that 1%... One last thought... DC setups assume a range of back-pressures. Some of the nano filters use small pleating and have a very large surface area -- this could be good or bad, depending. Until caked, the airflow may exceed the impeller/motor design envelope. It may be in your manual, but if not, contact CV and ask about filter compatibility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 This issue has still been gnawing at me... I haven't found an explanation that I'm satisfied with... In short, I can't see it... ==>horizontally One reason chips entering the filter stack aren't always disastrous is their tendency to remain in the filter pan (gravity) and not swirl around after their initial entry into the stack... Mounting filters horizontally (which I've never seen before) may permit chips to swirl in the filter rather than drop to the pan and damage the ePTFE coating on HEPA filters... Once the first breach occurs, the chips would be naturally drawn to that area via differential pressure -- rapidly increasing the damage to that area... So the problem could be a combination of horizontal mounting, chips and a HEPA/ePTFE filter... Now I can see it... BTW: more of the filter damage on the face pointing towards the floor? Before ordering new filter media, I'd talk to someone about horizontal mounting. If you must go that route, then SpunPoly may be the best media for that application... It's the most durable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew-in-austin Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Well, I am glad to report that Oneida has sent me 1 replacement filter! The other filter I have I think is fine, but it will take some time to know for sure. Oneida does want the old filter back to check it out. Most of the filter damage was on one side (facing the wall, and not the floor). I am going to consider mounting these vertically if I can. I am really glad Oneida was willing to replace the filter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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