Dust Collection Confusion

[Da Hammer]

Hello all, this is my first post and I think I am getting lost.  After living in my current home for 8 years and having a 40'x40' metal shed used for storage and some woodworking tools, I spent the last four days removing everything from the shop so I can insulate it (To keep cool in SE Louisiana).  I am re wiring and adding another 220V circuit for more tools, and considering dust collection.  Now I am beyond a woodworking beginner/idiot, I have never seen dust collection in action in person.  I am wanting to put a small shed on the back corner for my air compressor and future dust collector.  Then my plan would be to have 2 runs of 15' of 6" pipe following the wall on each side of that corner.  This seems plausible to me but I know literally nothing about doing this and currently I only have a table saw, router table and band saw that would even use dust collection, however I"m trying to look into the future before foaming and closing in the walls.  The more I read the more I get confused.  I am sure most of you have more experience than myself any advice?  Especially since there isn't anywhere around the house I can go in and actually look at a dust collector.  Thanks in advance.

[krtwood]

What is it you really want to know?  How big does the shed need to be?  If you have a cyclone you're looking at about 36" minimum from the wall to the end of the inlet transition.  So if you have a 4' depth inside your shed coming from the wall where the cyclone is going to be passing through then you are good to go with anything you could possibly put in there.  A 30 amp 220v circuit will cover anything as far as electrical.  If you went with the clearvue, you also need a 110 outlet in there for the remote unit to plug into.

The path I am going through is a 5 stage process, currently on stage 4.

Stage 1:  Good vacuum (Fein) and a cyclone separator hooked up to everything through a 2-1/2" network.

Stage 2: 1.5 hp DC with 4" flex hose + vacuum for smaller inlet tools (removed a few blast gates)

Stage 3 1.5 hp DC with 6" PVC (longest run ~10') + vacuum

Stage 4 Replace 1.5 hp DC with Cyclone

Stage 5 Extend 6" ducts to the rest of the shop

I started with a vacuum because there are some tools like hand held sanders that you're never going to hook up to a full DC unit and most of the hobbyist level tools I had at the time had 2-1/2" ports anyway.  I still have the vacuum hooked up to my table saw because it has a shroud around the blade with a 2-1/2" port, and to the router table because that draws through a little hole in the fence.  Vacuum is high pressure low volume.  Dust Collector is high volume low pressure.  You need both.

When I picked out the 1.5 hp DC I selected one with a 6" inlet (It was a JDS with a 1 micron canister filter).  It really doesn't have the power to handle 6" ducts but it generally worked fine, but with some issues with the planer.  My logic was that the cost of the cyclone and doing the duct work at the same time was going to be a real problem.  This way I was able to put down some money on the duct work and work on improving the dust shrouds on some tools where appropriate.  That way by the time I could afford the cyclone it would theoretically be a drop in replacement and I'd be good to go.

I'm currently walling off the cyclone (and vacuum and compressor) in the corner because I don't like working 10 feet from a jet engine.  So you're ahead of me with the whole DC in a shed plan.

[Robby W]

Hi - Welcome to the gang. Dust collection has a lot of things that need considering to engineer the system correctly. Here is a book that can give you a decent place to start:

http://www.amazon.com/Woodshop-Dust-Control-Complete-Setting/dp/156158116X

Then you might give Bill Pence's website a look, although he may scare you a bit.

Something to think about: a 2 HP dust collector can change or exhaust the air in a 40 x 40 foot shop in 20 minutes. If you are going to air condition you shop, you are going to need a way to return the air the DC is moving back to the shop.

[Da Hammer]

So I guess I don't even know all of my questions.

However another thought I had originally I had planned on running 220 to the area of the building I am working in, running air lines and DC lines then foaming, then closing in all of that behind studded and plywood walls.  

As I understand this  more would I be better to run the DC pipe on the outside of the wall?

Another question is I had planned on running my pipe along a pearling about 40" off the ground which would put my collection ports above the cabinets I am building.  However most of the DC systems seem to bring the inlet into the cyclone much higher.  Would it be a better idea for my to put the pipe higher up the wall?  

Sorry for the vague questions, I am trying to get the questions out best I can but I am pretty confused so it's hard to do.

[Trip]

==>2 runs of 15' of 6" pipe following the wall on each side of that corner

Why would you have a design without knowing any requirements?

And why 6" runs? Especially in a 40x40 space?

Your central trunk should match the DC inlet -- this is typically 8"

The entire 'dual 6' is a ClearVue/BP thing because their cyclones can't properly drive larger ductwork. This limits tools to small inlet and/or short runs... Which, after all, is their target audience -- the small hobby shop with small tools... A 40x40 shop will probably have some runs that exceed 6" ductwork's capability... And if you ever get a drum sander, 6" ductwork is highly suspect.

 

I'd start be reading Oneida's Ductwork Design Guide... Call them and they'll send you a copy free of charge... Until that arrives, you may want to start here:

http://www.oneida-air.com/static.asp?htmltemplate=static/ductwork_tutorial01.html

 

Here's Oneida's ductwork design requirements sheet:

http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/shop_plan_design_form_2014.pdf

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

[Brendon_t]

Trip, side note,  how do you determine your inlet size? My pm DC has a large hole covered by a plastic splitter coming off of the stack with dual 4" ports.

Would that unit be a 4" port or the size of the actual opening coming off of the stack? 

[estesbubba]

@hhh is this the guide you are talking about to have them send you or is there a more detailed one?

http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/ductguide.pdf

[krtwood]

32 minutes ago, hhh said:

==>2 runs of 15' of 6" pipe following the wall on each side of that corner

Why would you have a design without knowing any requirements?

And why 6" runs? Especially in a 40x40 space?

Your central trunk should match the DC inlet -- this is typically 8"

The entire 'dual 6' is a ClearVue/BP thing because their cyclones can't properly drive larger ductwork. This limits tools to small inlet and/or short runs... Which, after all, is their target audience -- the small hobby shop with small tools... A 40x40 shop will probably have some runs that exceed 6" ductwork's capability... And if you ever get a drum sander, 6" ductwork is highly suspect.

And this is why people are confused.  No matter what anybody says there's always somebody else to come and say no that's all wrong, you need something else entirely.  The guy has a plan to arrange his tools a certain way but you want him to scatter his tools that need DC all over the shop instead.  You're telling him to worry about buying a wide belt sander when all he has is a table saw, band saw, and router table.  There isn't a drum sander with more than two 4" ports that I'm aware of so I assume that's what you mean.  Even the fancy pants new Powermatic has a single 4" port (which is silly, but that's what it has).  Just because he has a big shop doesn't mean he's ever going to have all the giant stationary tools that could fit in it or that he has to put everything that needs DC as far apart as possible.

Anyway, as far as where the ducts should go.  Most people run them near the ceiling to get them out of the way.  6" ducts (or larger) are pretty big as you start getting into those wye's especially and it takes a lot of room.  You're supposed to run the branch of the wye out horizontally not vertically and it's pretty difficult to do that if the main line is on the wall.

[Trip]

==>is this the guide you are talking about to have them send you or is there a more detailed one?

There's a 40 page one... Many of the same topics, but more examples of 'good' and 'poor' layouts... If they've stopped distributing it, I'll eMail you a copy.

 

==>Just because he has a big shop doesn't mean he's ever going to have all the giant stationary tools that could fit in it or that he has to put everything that needs DC as far apart as possible.

Agreed, but you misread my post entirely.... It's about design before requirements... That's my entire point: why pick 6" ductwork before you've gathered proper requirements... Evey time someone starts-off with 6" ductwork, it's "Yet another newbie has found CV or BP's site and read the marketing bullshit"...  Sad...

 

[Dweller Productions]

I think we all start out in the same boat you are in.  I am by no means an expert, so I look at what others have done and duplicate it.  I am currently in the process of upgrading my dust collection as well and I am going to go with the ClearVue Cyclone.  This is not to say the others won't work, but I feel the CV system will be the best system especially when I move one day to a bigger shop.

The major issue I am running into is finding 6" PVC in my area.  The big box stores don't carry it and I have to buy so much if I order it that I need to find a different path.

I came across Oneida's Gorilla Quick Fit.  It is similar to NordFab except for the price.  Everything I have read so far suggests I don't need to go with NordFab and I am thinking this will do the trick.

My advice though, don't compromise.  If you don't get what you need now, you will end up spending more money later to fix it.  If you aren't sure what to do, hire an expert.  Most of the companies will give you free estimates and design your duct work for you.

Hope that helps!

Peter

[drzaius]

33 minutes ago, Dweller Productions said:

I think we all start out in the same boat you are in.  I am by no means an expert, so I look at what others have done and duplicate it.  I am currently in the process of upgrading my dust collection as well and I am going to go with the ClearVue Cyclone.  This is not to say the others won't work, but I feel the CV system will be the best system especially when I move one day to a bigger shop.

The major issue I am running into is finding 6" PVC in my area.  The big box stores don't carry it and I have to buy so much if I order it that I need to find a different path.

I came across Oneida's Gorilla Quick Fit.  It is similar to NordFab except for the price.  Everything I have read so far suggests I don't need to go with NordFab and I am thinking this will do the trick.

My advice though, don't compromise.  If you don't get what you need now, you will end up spending more money later to fix it.  If you aren't sure what to do, hire an expert.  Most of the companies will give you free estimates and design your duct work for you.

Hope that helps!

Peter

Why not just use spiral duct. It's light years cheaper than NordFab & the air going through it isn't going to know the difference. Just be sure to use long radius elbows.

[Dweller Productions]

Well, to be honest, I didn't really know the difference.  I wasn't going with Nordfab because I can't see the benefits over the costs.  I did research on Bill Pentz's page and he showed PVC having the least resistance to air flow, but I am having a hard time finding it at reasonable prices. 

The Gorilla Quick clamp is about $10 more than the spiral and I will need to research it more.  Is that what you use?  Do you know if it is pretty easy to go together?  The Oneida page suggests 24 gauge, does that sound right.  I am planning on getting the CV1800 and they state 6" works great for airflow.  

I definitely have to replace what I have because it just isn't getting that fine dust.  I wear a respirator whenever I am using my large machines, but the cleanup afterwords is significant.

Peter

[estesbubba]

29 minutes ago, drzaius said:

Why not just use spiral duct. It's light years cheaper than NordFab & the air going through it isn't going to know the difference. Just be sure to use long radius elbows.

That's what I did and the entire pipe, fittings, blast gates, and accessories cost me a total of $500 locally. Here are some pics of mine:

 

[drzaius]

I should add that there is spiral duct that is smooth & spiral duct that has the seams that are ribbed a bit. That kind is not recommended for high velocity systems. So make sure of what you order.

[Andy Wright]

My two cents is that you can go a couple of different ways.

Option 1 - spend several thousand dollars to "do it right the first time". If you go this route you can use resources from Oneida or Penn State to help you design ductwork, etc

Option 2 - buy a portable dust collection system and build a network out of PVC. This option is less expensive and easier to reconfigure. Since it soulds like you only have a few tools then i would start with a couple of hoses directly to your tablesaw and router table (bandsaw doesnt make a ton of dust so its optional). If you have been working with no dust collection then it will seem like heaven. 

If you are trying to add AC to your shop then you need to either pit an air return between your shed and the shop or put the DC into the shop. Otherwise you will literally suck all of the cold air out of the shop and into the shed every time you turn on the DC.

[Eric.]

Yeah I agree with Andy...go half-ass to start with (Option 2).  That's what I did and it's "sufficient," for now anyway.  One day I'll upgrade to a hardcore system but not until I own every tool I've ever wanted and a Porsche.  A multi-thousand dollar DC just isn't at the top of my list of interests.

I'll add another wrinkle and suggest that even if you have the biggest baddest monster of a DC and duct the size of Donald Trump's head...it won't matter because the puny, poorly-engineered ports on your hobbyist machines will choke every ounce of efficiency out of the whole system and you'll still be breathing those fine particulates despite the fact that you're broke.

[rodger.]

I went with the Delta 50-760, which has a 5" port inlet.  It also has a large impeller, and is claimed to move 1200+ CFM.

I did a lot of reading, and this machine meets Bill Pentz's criteria for good, fine dust collection as long as the hose is short and it collects one tool at a time.  So, thats what I do.  I actually mounted this Colector to my shop wall and it services my jointer and planer.  I just move the hose when I need to switch machines - no gates, no manifolds.  Just one hose.  The planer is on a cart and moves over to the collector.

The machine comes with a 1 micron bag, which is not really good enough.  I am in the process of upgrading to a Wynn Nano filter, or I might just go @shaneymack style and pump the whole thing outdoors.

@Eric. is right - the ports need to be modified.  I bought a brand new HH Powermatic, and had to remove the hood and make a new one to accept the 5" hose.  I did the same with the planer.

Other tools use a different strategy.  I have a CT 26 for my Kapex and hand held power tools (sanders, domino, router, etc).  I have a dedicated vac with Dust deputy and HEPA for my Table saw (which also gets used for floor clean up and router table - cause mt RT is in my TS).

It really boils down to collecting dust at the source properly (which few machines do well without modifications), and having a decent collector.  In the end,you really should do all of the above AND wear a N95+ respirator.

Good luck!  We all strive for perfection in DC, but we all fall short.  Do you best, wear your respirator, and get building!

[Da Hammer]

This is very helpful, I am so new to much of this and I am finding it very difficult to plan something out when you don't know what you don't know.  I have been reading about DC for a while just to try and set things up to start.  After reading more the last 24 hours I know I won't hide the pipe in the walls.  So with that out of the way, I am not on a deadline to get DC solved.  I can set up my 240 runs as I had planned, spray foam, Stud and OSB then start building cabinets and such.  I think I will deal with dust collection as I go.

Also at my stage of this hobby while I have 40x40 I am not ready to commit all of that to woodworking, perhaps in the future but for now I am just wanting to get going as I have really enjoyed working with wood even though I am pretty basic currently.  Thank you all for the insight, I will continue to read up on the resources in here and hopefully not piss as many of you off with my future questions and endeavors.

 

I have enjoyed lurking here the last few weeks and hope to get more involved going forward.

[jussi]

Be prepared.  Ducting is expensive and the costs goes up considerably the larger diameter you go.  Even pvc will be expensive.  For example a 20ft long 8" pipe will cost over $100.  Until you're ready I'd get a portable system and a good respirator. 

[Dweller Productions]

@Pug, I have the same DC and I just found on the Oneida site a pretty good GE HEPA filter that is supposed to fit.  I currently have the Wynn, but it is difficult to hook up and when I pull it off to clean it, the gasket gets worse each time.  I am going to try the GE HEPA as I like the way it hooks to the system.  I am then going to add the Super Dust Deputy to the bottom and I should have a pretty good two stage system.  

I really wanted to buy the CV 1800, but after re-working my shop set up in Sketchup, I just don't have the room for it.  I will get it the day I move into a larger shop which is my goal two years from now.

The setup above is going to cost me about $500, which seems like a lot, but not compared to the $2,000 price tag of the CV 1800.  I usually like to just get the final product first and I mentioned that in my first comment, but I just can't with the size of my shop and the amount of money I have to spend.  I will post when I get it done.  I am in the process of re-organizing my small basement shop so it can be functional for the projects I am working on.  

Thanks to everyone for all your input.  I think it has saved me a ton of time and money.  I am just wearing a respirator for now and this spring I will enclose my current dust collector and run 6" lines and see how the CFM and FPM are to make sure I am collecting the fine dust.  

Peter

[mkrusen]

Alright here's my opinion. Dust collection is a huge topic and has plenty of different answers, many of which are "correct" and will certainly get the job done. I honestly don't think you need to dive in the deep end at the moment. Take your time, do your research, and set up your permanent dust collection after you've sifted through the data and figured out what is best for you. In the mean time, go to Harbor Freight and get their 2hp dust collector. It'll be $200 very well spent. You'll be able to just plug it in and start building, which is what's really important here. You can upgrade the bag to a 1 micron for about $20. Wear your respirator and you'll be safe and happy. As you get further into the hobby and figure out your overall DC needs then you can start upgrading and installing ductwork.

[rodger.]

4 hours ago, Dweller Productions said:

@Pug, I have the same DC and I just found on the Oneida site a pretty good GE HEPA filter that is supposed to fit.  I currently have the Wynn, but it is difficult to hook up and when I pull it off to clean it, the gasket gets worse each time.  I am going to try the GE HEPA as I like the way it hooks to the system.  I am then going to add the Super Dust Deputy to the bottom and I should have a pretty good two stage system.  

I really wanted to buy the CV 1800, but after re-working my shop set up in Sketchup, I just don't have the room for it.  I will get it the day I move into a larger shop which is my goal two years from now.

The setup above is going to cost me about $500, which seems like a lot, but not compared to the $2,000 price tag of the CV 1800.  I usually like to just get the final product first and I mentioned that in my first comment, but I just can't with the size of my shop and the amount of money I have to spend.  I will post when I get it done.  I am in the process of re-organizing my small basement shop so it can be functional for the projects I am working on.  

Thanks to everyone for all your input.  I think it has saved me a ton of time and money.  I am just wearing a respirator for now and this spring I will enclose my current dust collector and run 6" lines and see how the CFM and FPM are to make sure I am collecting the fine dust.  

Peter

Thanks for the info.  Let me know how the Oneida goes - I was eyeing it too.