Cyclone

[Dknapp34]

Time to get serious about dust collection.  My HF unit is not cutting it anymore.  I'm leaning towards the Oneida V-2000.  I like that it's made in the U.S. and Syracuse is only an hour drive from me, so I could pick it up and save on the shipping.  The reviews I've read have all been positive, but I'm curious if anyone here has experience with it?

[Janello]

No help here, but would like to here a review from you if and when you have used it a while.

[Arch Stanton]

No help here either, but I can say that their Dust Deputies (both the little one and super sized) work wonderfully.  I can only assume that their integrated system works at least as well and probably better.

[cjtboy]

Funny - when I saw your name and location, Dknapp, I just assumed you were the guy @ Oneida that helped me out on my order (his name was Dan Knapp).  I guess not!

Not the exact same unit, but I have the portable dust gorilla (3 hp) and it works great. I got it on sale last year. Saving on shipping would have been huge, their shipping charges are a little silly - especially seeing that I live across the country.  Putting the machine together was a pain but not too difficult - get some helpers for sure - and there were extra parts not in instructions at all that I had no idea what were for (always makes me nervous), but other than that has been all good and am happy with it.

Their customer service is excellent.  With the order of a machine, they also included a duct design plan.  I don't have the money for that right now and we might be moving in the next year or so, so I didn't get that, but nice to have their take on what the layout should be. Right now I just move around one hose from machine to machine, not ideal but gets the job done for now until I can upgrade down the road.

 

[Dknapp34]

28 minutes ago, Janello said:

No help here, but would like to here a review from you if and when you have used it a while.

Will do.  

5 minutes ago, cjtboy said:

Funny - when I saw your name and location, Dknapp, I just assumed you were the guy @ Oneida that helped me out on my order (his name was Dan Knapp).  I guess not!

Not the exact same unit, but I have the portable dust gorilla (3 hp) and it works great. I got it on sale last year. Saving on shipping would have been huge, their shipping charges are a little silly - especially seeing that I live across the country.  Putting the machine together was a pain but not too difficult - get some helpers for sure - and there were extra parts not in instructions at all that I had no idea what were for (always makes me nervous), but other than that has been all good and am happy with it.

Their customer service is excellent.  With the order of a machine, they also included a duct design plan.  I don't have the money for that right now and we might be moving in the next year or so, so I didn't get that, but nice to have their take on what the layout should be. Right now I just move around one hose from machine to machine, not ideal but gets the job done for now until I can upgrade down the road.

It's not me, I swear 

The duct design plan is kind of a nice perk.  How does it work?  Do you show them pics of your shop or something?

 

[cjtboy]

28 minutes ago, Dknapp34 said:

The duct design plan is kind of a nice perk.  How does it work?  Do you show them pics of your shop or something?

Exactly - you send measurements, a rough sketch of your shop (or sketchup model, etc) - I just had it laid out on graph paper. Then you take a few pics of your set up from a few angles so they can see all in place. You describe any wants/issues - e.g. I wanted the duct to run as high on the wall as possible so as not to be in the way, and wanted overheads @ ceiling height as well so I wouldn't walk into them but wanted to avoid the lights so as not to cast shadows, etc. They have a form with some questions to run through so they can set you up right. 

Is worth getting in touch with them to chat about their machines too - they definitely did not try to upsell me, which I was pleasantly surprised by and appreciated.  When I called, they asked a bunch of good questions on my work and needs, and said I could get away with the 2hp unit if I wanted.  I ended up getting the 3 as it was on sale and figured it would give me a little more flexibility as I get more tools, etc.

[pkinneb]

I have a 3hp Onieda Super Dust Gorilla that I installed 12 years ago using their design service and it has worked flawlessly. Very happy with them, their products, and their customer service. 

[andrew-in-austin]

I would recommend going for 5HP unit and getting your own drum for only slightly more money than the v-2000 -if you can wire up a 30A line.   If not, then at least go 3HP.  You will -never- regret getting too much HP for a dust collector.

I did not purchase my dust collector from Oneida, but have spent about the equivalent $$ for filters, ducts, and related items and have experienced excellent customer service from them.  If you want a high quality US-made dust collector that is plug-n-play, there really is no other option.

[Dknapp34]

I think the 5hp might be a little overkill, since I'm only going to be using it for one machine at a time. I also don't have the ceiling clearance for the higher hp Dust Gorilla models. The 3hp versus 2hp V Series is the real decision for me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ChrisG-Canada]

I have the V-3000. Works great for me.  I only use 1 machine at a time but if I accidentally leave an extra blast gate open the collection still works great.

[ben_r_]

I have the V-3000 too. Awesome unit and great customer service from Oneida. I also got all my metal ducting from them as well. If you go with the 3HP unit you get their duct design service tailored for your shop for free. Then you can build your own version of their dust bin sensor and filter efficiency gauge with the tutorials I made here LINK and LINK for much cheaper than they sell it. I also got the leg riser kit for it so I could use the drum dolly with the 35 gallon steel drum I upgraded too. That was a very nice addition as it allows me to just wheel the dust bin around to empty it.

[Nestor]

I have the V-3000 too. Awesome unit and great customer service from Oneida. I also got all my metal ducting from them as well. If you go with the 3HP unit you get their duct design service tailored for your shop for free. Then you can build your own version of their dust bin sensor and filter efficiency gauge with the tutorials I made here LINK and LINK for much cheaper than they sell it. I also got the leg riser kit for it so I could use the drum dolly with the 35 gallon steel drum I upgraded too. That was a very nice addition as it allows me to just wheel the dust bin around to empty it.

Could you post a version of the tutorials here? Can't see the pictures unless one is a member of Sawmill Creek.

[Dknapp34]

Thanks for the info everyone.  After considering the comments and doing some additional research, I think I'm going to go with the 3hp V-3000.  It's only marginally more expensive than the 2hp model and so I might as well get the extra power.  

Now I just have to make sure I can fit it in my basement.  I have a drop ceiling, so I think I should have plenty of room if I remove a few ceiling tiles, as long as the top of the motor can fit between joists.  Can someone who has the V-3000 tell me how big in diameter the top-most part of the unit is?

[ben_r_]

18 hours ago, Nestor said:

Could you post a version of the tutorials here? Can't see the pictures unless one is a member of Sawmill Creek.

There is a lot of info in those threads contributed by several other people. I couldnt move it all over to new threads here. Just create an account at sawmillcreek, its just uses an email. If youre into woodworking you should definitely check out that site too anyway.

[Pwk5017]

3 hours ago, Dknapp34 said:

Thanks for the info everyone.  After considering the comments and doing some additional research, I think I'm going to go with the 3hp V-3000.  It's only marginally more expensive than the 2hp model and so I might as well get the extra power.  

Now I just have to make sure I can fit it in my basement.  I have a drop ceiling, so I think I should have plenty of room if I remove a few ceiling tiles, as long as the top of the motor can fit between joists.  Can someone who has the V-3000 tell me how big in diameter the top-most part of the unit is?

That is what I did with my cyclone. Im dealing with 85-86" clear heights in my basement, but another foot in between joists. Make sure the motor has 3"+/- before the subfloor, because it needs adequate airflow to stay cool.

[Chris H]

For those that are struggling with ceiling heights, you may want to add consideration of poking holes in your ceiling to accommodate.  I know this is very permanent, but it has a couple of big advantages.  

If you get the top of the cyclone into your rafters, you can conceal much of your piping in the rafters as well as the motor head.  This will greatly reduce sound, while still giving the motor room/air flow to breath (stay cool).  In addition, for most DC's the single greatest loss of CFM is that first bend out of the cyclone up to the ceiling where most of us run the pipes.  If you can make it a straight shot out of the cyclone to your main run(s) you will make huge improvements to your performance.  

When you get into the 3+ HP models, they can brute force their way through, but you are adding unnecessary static pressure to the line which creates lots of less desirable things.  More work for the motor = more electricity/amps pulled.  If you are sharing a box with the rest of the house this can lead to more tripping of fuses, especially when the DC and a larger tool are going.  

[Hurricane Dry]

On 4/15/2016 at 0:06 PM, Chris H said:

For those that are struggling with ceiling heights, you may want to add consideration of poking holes in your ceiling to accommodate.  I know this is very permanent, but it has a couple of big advantages.  

If you get the top of the cyclone into your rafters, you can conceal much of your piping in the rafters as well as the motor head.  This will greatly reduce sound, while still giving the motor room/air flow to breath (stay cool).  In addition, for most DC's the single greatest loss of CFM is that first bend out of the cyclone up to the ceiling where most of us run the pipes.  If you can make it a straight shot out of the cyclone to your main run(s) you will make huge improvements to your performance.  

When you get into the 3+ HP models, they can brute force their way through, but you are adding unnecessary static pressure to the line which creates lots of less desirable things.  More work for the motor = more electricity/amps pulled.  If you are sharing a box with the rest of the house this can lead to more tripping of fuses, especially when the DC and a larger tool are going.  

Dust collectors are about moving CFM to be useful for dust collection purposes.  So as you stated, you want low static pressure to move the most dust.

However, for a given impeller and electric motor, increasing static pressure means lower cfm's which means less HP required and lower amps pulled.

[Chris H]

14 hours ago, Hurricane Dry said:

Dust collectors are about moving CFM to be useful for dust collection purposes.  So as you stated, you want low static pressure to move the most dust.

However, for a given impeller and electric motor, increasing static pressure means lower cfm's which means less HP required and lower amps pulled.

Agreed, except that more static pressure means the motor will have to work harder.  As you stress or add resistance (static pressure) to an electric motor, it pulls more amperage.  This is why you pop fuses when overburdening tools like a table saw with thick stock.  The amps pulled exceeds the fused allowance and the breaker pops.  

>HP will overcome more static pressure (stronger motor, overcomes more resistance).  More bends and curves = more static pressure (resistance).  The sooner the bend or curve in the line (especially right out of the collector) the greater the impact to the overall system, requiring greater HP for the same performance or CFM.  

The design of your system is equally (perhaps more) important than the blower being used.  A 3HP model with a poorly designed duct system will perform worse than a 2 HP with a well designed system.  This is something that seems to get often overlooked, especially as I watch YouTube videos of even prominent woodworkers, hence my recommendation to find a way to get your inlet at the same height as your main run.  

[andrew-in-austin]

Higher static pressure = thinner air = less work for blower.  Saws and other tools are completely different with respect to load. 

For the DC I can easily observe this since I have a VFD which can show amperage used. The biggest, lowest resistance duct is always the highest amperage. 

 

[Hurricane Dry]

2 hours ago, Chris H said:

Agreed, except that more static pressure means the motor will have to work harder.  As you stress or add resistance (static pressure) to an electric motor, it pulls more amperage.  This is why you pop fuses when overburdening tools like a table saw with thick stock.  The amps pulled exceeds the fused allowance and the breaker pops.  

>HP will overcome more static pressure (stronger motor, overcomes more resistance).  More bends and curves = more static pressure (resistance).  The sooner the bend or curve in the line (especially right out of the collector) the greater the impact to the overall system, requiring greater HP for the same performance or CFM.  

The design of your system is equally (perhaps more) important than the blower being used.  A 3HP model with a poorly designed duct system will perform worse than a 2 HP with a well designed system.  This is something that seems to get often overlooked, especially as I watch YouTube videos of even prominent woodworkers, hence my recommendation to find a way to get your inlet at the same height as your main run.  

I know it's confusing, but increasing static pressure on a fan in a woodworking dust collector is not the same as pushing boards through a table saw faster.  Pulling more air in CFM through the fan is analogous to pushing boards through the table saw faster.  And by reducing static pressure, you allow more air to be pulled by the fan.

This is an important point and it is easy to get backwards because it is counterintuitive.  I had to correct my own thinking in the early 90's when I first started dealing with centrifugal pumps which work very similar to many of the fan impellers used in hobby shop dust collectors.  (To be sure, many axial flow or propeller pumps do require more power with increased pressure and less flow.  There may be some styles of fans that also work this way.)

The key point to understanding how most woodworking dust collector fans work is this:

Increasing flow rate increases work required.

Increasing flow increases static pressure losses.

As static pressure increases, the fan's ability to move air decreases.

Say you have a 3hp dust collector in a given system.  The friction in the system and the impeller design are such that 681 CFM are flowing at a static pressure of 6.2" of water and the motor is pulling 10.2 amps.

Now say you partially close the gate to the machine where dust is being collected. Closing the gate will increase losses and reduce air flow.  The system will now be moving only 437 cfm, static pressure has increased to 10" of water and motor amps will drop to 8.4 due to the lower work of moving less air.

Now say, you open some large gate up.  Static pressure will drop to 2" of water, flow rate jumps up to 977 cfm and motor amps jump up to 11.3 amps.

I didn't make these figures up.  They came from the fan curve table for Oneida's 3hp, portable dust Gorilla.

http://www.oneida-air.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=XXP990301H&CatId={AC1122DA-3A28-4606-9B70-189ACD0BC2E4}

Part of the problem is that the manufacturers of the woodworking dust collectors don't publish the fan curves.  You can't tell what's going on unless you have that fan curve.  Some of them will tell you the max flow rate of the fan with no static pressure which is useless since no system is frictionless and also tell you the maximum static pressure of the fan which is also useless because that means no air is being moved.  You need to know how much air is being moved at a given static pressure.

 

1 hour ago, andrew-in-austin said:

Higher static pressure = thinner air = less work for blower.  Saws and other tools are completely different with respect to load. 

For the DC I can easily observe this since I have a VFD which can show amperage used. The biggest, lowest resistance duct is always the highest amperage. 

 

Being able to get test data like this is the best way to learn how something works.  You can experiment and it sticks with you.

[Dknapp34]

Well, I pulled the trigger today on the 3hp V-3000. I'll try to do a review once I get it all set up and use it for a while.  Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

[rodger.]

sweet!  looking forward to the pics!

[Dknapp34]

Came home to find this today:

First impressions...holy crap that's a lot of boxes!

[ben_r_]

Yep, thats what mine looked like too. Hope you have someone to help you, lifting the motor up to the top is kinda tough. Not sure it can be done with just one person. Youd have to be pretty buff.

I just got done this weekend adding the leg riser kit, the drum dolly and the filter efficiency gauge. Started working on the ducting a bit too. Lot of work to be done setting up a proper dust collection system.

[Dknapp34]

Long overdue update:  It only took me 3 1/2 months, but I finally have the cyclone installed and the ducting (mostly) run.  I have to finish the drops for my jointer and planer, but otherwise it's good to go.  Ripped a few strips of plywood on my Sawstop with the dust collecting blade guard and there was no visible dust at all.  Pretty impressive.  I'm going to expand the ducting to make a floor sweep, and hook up something for my bandsaw and lathe too, but for now I'm happy with having the TS, jointer and planer hooked up.  I've got some shop renovation plans in the works, so I don't want to go too crazy with the ducting right now and then have to redo it all in a few months.