Friend with bandsaw mill

[BeingFrank]

So a former coworker contacted me last week to tell me her and her husband bought a bandsaw mill to use on their farm here in Missouri.  They live a few hours south of me, and apparently are looking to sell lumber (currently milling for use on their farm, but open to selling to friends for now.  I know almost nothing about rough sawn non dried lumber, other than the difference in quarter sawn, etc.  Their property is full of oak, the other species I'm not sure of because I haven't been down there.  

My question: If I were to buy some lumber fresh off of their mill, both live edge planks and some quarter sawn oak, what surprises/ disappointments will I be with air drying it at my house?  I've only bought lumber from lumber yards or box stores.  How long would it take for fresh cut oak to get to a workable level in Missouri with just air drying?

Thanks in advance for any information or tips. I will try to answer any questions, but as of now this is all the information I have. 

Frank

 

[Brendon_t]

Depending on initial thickness,  could be up north of a year per inch of thickness.   Surprise include bugs,  wonky stock that releases tension when you cut and if red oak,  a surprise disgusting smell every time you cut it.

I'd be interested to see what he's pricing it at. To me,  wet  rough sawn lumber is worth MAYBE HALF the price as stuff ready to go. Drying and waiting is a pain.  That's why you pay a premium on ready to go lumber. Wet doesn't get that premium. 

With that said,  you may get great lumber free of critters at a great price 

[Dylder]

Where at in Missouri? Need some prices too. 

[wdwerker]

I would be thinking 1/4 the price of dry lumber. Sealing the end grain is the most important thing.

[Brendon_t]

19 minutes ago, wdwerker said:

I would be thinking 1/4 the price of dry lumber. Sealing the end grain is the most important thing.

I think that's closer.

[BeingFrank]

Thanks for the info guys.  I'll try to get some more information on pricing.  Sounds like a long time to dry things out, I may not have enough room here to leave wood drying for a year plus, my workshop is in the basement which wouldn't help drying time.  

[Pwk5017]

Yeah, green lumber up here in PA is like $.50-.70 a board foot for cherry, maple, oak, ash etc. I havent found green walnut yet, maybe the only species i would be tempted to buy green. First off, anyone selling green lumber is going to be in bumble**** nowhere. This means a decent drive goes along with the pain of loading and unloading the lumber. Next, you either have a solid year+ of waiting time, or you can pay a local kiln to fit it into their schedule. Ive looked into it and it looks like most kilns near me charge .50-70 a board to dry the stuff. Finally, you get to bring it home and you purchased lumber for $1-$1.50 a bdft, which is pretty good. Except its ungraded, you moved it 4 times, and i can buy KD 1com cherry for $1.50-1.80 a bdft, sometimes less. 

 

Ive considered doing this, but it would HAVE to be walnut in 8-10/4, and i would HAVE to buy it for $0.75-1.00 a bdft green for me to even think about it. I would buy 1,000+bdft and be set for a year at a great price. It would take me a year to forget how much of a PITA it was moving 1000-2000 bdft of 8/4 walnut onto a trailer from the sawyer, and then into the lumber facility, and then back onto the trailer, and back off the trailer at my house. You wouldnt be able to count the amount of times i said "why did i do this to myself!?". Different strokes for different folks. If you go through with it and buy some quantity, you are going to gain a new profound respect for the lumber industry. 

[Brendon_t]

I don't intend to make it sound all bad. I cut down the tree, sawed the lumber and air dried the 8/4 ash for my roubo bench. I also just had about 250bf of walnut cut off of a few logs I got and are sitting, stacked. If you are so inclined,  you can build a simple dehumidifier kiln with construction lumber, painters plastic and a dehumidifier.  Two major points I would being up are

1) drying time varies greatly depending on location.  I'm in hot arid California and 8/4 ash took about 9 months on the stack.  You don't need to dry in your shop.  If there's a 12'x4' area out of the way in a sunny spot with good airflow, you can leave it outside.

2) it is a cool experience building with wood you took through the whole process. 

[Pwk5017]

33 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

I don't intend to make it sound all bad. I cut down the tree, sawed the lumber and air dried the 8/4 ash for my roubo bench. I also just had about 250bf of walnut cut off of a few logs I got and are sitting, stacked. If you are so inclined,  you can build a simple dehumidifier kiln with construction lumber, painters plastic and a dehumidifier.  Two major points I would being up are

1) drying time varies greatly depending on location.  I'm in hot arid California and 8/4 ash took about 9 months on the stack.  You don't need to dry in your shop.  If there's a 12'x4' area out of the way in a sunny spot with good airflow, you can leave it outside.

2) it is a cool experience building with wood you took through the whole process. 

Nobody can argue #2. I havent done it, but the romantic in me respects it. 

 

#1 is similar to cremona's results. With him drying indoors with a fan going on the stack, he makes it seem like he dries 4/4 in 3-4 months. There are certainly ways and methods of accelerating the dry time. This is assuming you have a conditioned space to store lumber or you live in california, which most do not. Regardless, Matt has a decent video on how to properly stack lumber. That is an often overlooked aspect of drying lumber, and can lead to very unsuitable boards--aka barely getting 1/2" out of 4/4 and jointing till your arms fall off. 

[Eric.]

I wouldn't bother with green lumber unless you could get it for pennies on the dollar.  Literally pennies.  A ton of work goes into preparing lumber, and work costs money too, if your time has any value.  I don't change my own brakes or oil in my vehicles either, because the cost savings aren't worth the time it takes.

[Chestnut]

Do a mill for woods you can't buy commercially. Buy woods commercially that you can. I have some Russian Olive, Box Elder, and Choke Cherry in my basement drying. Only reason I'm putting the effort in is because you can't just go out and buy it.

Slabs might be a whole different story, if that's your thing, For oak I'd leave it to the pros they can do it better and cheaper.

[BeingFrank]

Yeah I'm really glad to get input on this, sounds like it's not going to be something I'm willing to go through, especially for the oak.  My original thought was to get some large beams to make a trestle style dining table using large beams 6"x6" or 8"x8" for the base.  I had originally thought pine or reclaimed beams from a barn that were already dried were my only option that would be reasonable, but thought if my friends could mill up some 8"x8" wood that I could then dry and mill down to whatever it took to get it in shape, I could have an oak (or whatever other hardwood they have) base.  

However I can't even imagine how long it would take to dry an 8" think piece of wood. 

Thanks again folks.

[toddclippinger]

The hassle, headache, and liability of using material that is not professionally kiln dried has never been worth it to me. But that is from a business perspective.

I would not begrudge anybody that wants to have that experience, but I am totally with Eric. 

[Pwk5017]

10 hours ago, toddclippinger said:

The hassle, headache, and liability of using material that is not professionally kiln dried has never been worth it to me. But that is from a business perspective.

I would not begrudge anybody that wants to have that experience, but I am totally with Eric. 

As my previous posts imply, I am in this camp as well. However, you do see guys that have people mill lumber for them, and its a friggin gold mine log. Buying awesomely figured walnut for $.70-$1.00 a bdft would be outstanding. I wouldnt do it for ho-hum lumber, but if you sourced good logs, then it would be totally worth the pain of handling and taking to a kiln to dry etc. 

[Chris H]

My opinion isn't entirely different, but I'd frame it a different way.  First, yes, milling lumber and drying is work, and most of all, it takes time.  If space is at a premium for you, don't even consider it.  If you can have a pile of milled logs drying without wife aggro, by all means, continue thinking about it.  Milling like almost any woodworking is an upfront investment that will pay dividends over the long haul.  Don't expect quick wins, or you'll lose every time.  If you have a commercial mill near you, just take a trip and note their inventory.  I've only been to about a half dozen different mills in my lifetime, but they all clearly had years and years of inventory of domestics drying in open lots.  Air drying before kiln drying limits a lot of risks.

 

Anyway, to the point.   These are just my experiences, but I hope someone can use them for what their worth.

1) Don't ever buy green lumber, buy green logs (or more ideally, find free ones).  As noted above, commercial lumber is graded, or essentially split into premium and not so premium piles.  When you buy the log/tree you get both at the non-premium price (or you should).  Figured lumber held within should be your reward for all the other risks you are taking.  Don't let the mill snatch that out and sell at egregious markups.    Since your friend is doing the milling, see if you can buy a few logs and pay him for his/her time milling it up.  You can quickly get quotes for what a reasonable rate is in your area.  By me, it is typically $0.15/bf or $50-$75/hour.

2) Be sure you understand/communicate the waste that is in the milling process.  Pro's who mill will already know this and adjust accordingly, but your friend may not.  If you get 70% of a log's volume in usable product, you are ahead of average.  Remember the pith has to come out of the middle, and all the checking has to be cut off.  Now figure in sap wood you may not want, knots, and any major splits that occur.  And this is just to get to usable rough lumber.  You'll lose another 25%-30% getting it finish milled.

3) Embrace the milling/drying process just as you do other woodworking tasks.  For me, I enjoy milling up a log as much as building furniture (sometimes more!).  I don't think you really come out ahead on the value of your time with small batch milling, nor small batch woodworking when you really think about it.  So discount that as is appropriate for you.  If you value your time the same as your employer, chances are you shouldn't be in woodworking at all.  There are non-financial benefits to spending your time doing something you enjoy.  

4)  I am still very new to milling.  I do it because I like the options of different lumbers at my fingertips.  The commercial mill isn't convenient for me, given distance and hours of operations, so this is a band aid solution.  I still plan to buy about 75% of my lumber from the commercial mill.  However, I love live edge slab type projects.  This is where the commercial mill will really hit the pocket book hard.  In addition, I woodwork semi-pro, so the ability to walk out my door and snap a few pictures of lumber for a customer is extremely useful to help align our expectations.  

5) All in all, green lumber is just another rabbit hole you can head down if you are so inclined.  It can be worth it, but you have to enjoy the process, embrace the patience, and set realistic expectations for your output and success.  Your logs won't look like the stacks at the lumber yard.  

In the end, you won't save money, though you may yield a lower cost /bf.  It's like reloading ammo, you don't spend less, you just get to shoot more!

[Chris H]

Totally agree with Mike, but Kiln's only kill bugs if they are setup properly to achieve that goal.  Most DIY jobs won't kill the pests.  You need to reach a certain temperature to kill them ( which is different by species of insect).  I can't remember the exact number, but I feel like the guy at the mill said something like 165F degrees is their target (can't remember for sure though).  My hommade kiln is in 110F-120F most of the time.  I've had it as high as 150F but it destroyed the lumber (too much heat too soon).  There is an art to this part, and the wood is far more forgiving if it has air dried for a while.

[BeingFrank]

I'm very glad I posted here.  Lots of things go into the process that I had no idea about.  I think for now, I'm sticking with buying lumber from the lumber yard and in the future if my set up allows it, I may take a swing at it. Or if my friends start kiln drying the lumber, it may open the opportunity up quicker. 

I'm already learning so many different things this early in my wood working that adding another rabbit hole to go down sounds like a bit much.  

 

[Pondhockey]

On May 19, 2016 at 10:04 PM, wdwerker said:

I would be thinking 1/4 the price of dry lumber. Sealing the end grain is the most important thing.

Werker (or anyone else!) can you say more about sealing the end grain?  My experience and knowledge about drying wood is for firewood - logs dry mostly through the ends!  What is the benefit of sealing the ends and do you know the mechanism?

[wtnhighlander]

Sealing the ends slows the loss of moisture through the open cells of the end grain. This reduces the amount of splitting / cracking that occurs near the ends. And generally helps the wood to dry at a more even and leisurely pace, I presume.

[wdwerker]

If the ends are left unsealed the wood dries out too quickly and you get more cracking at the ends. When the ends are sealed the wood dries at the same rate as the middle of the board and less stress is created. 

[Brendon_t]

2 hours ago, Pondhockey said:

Werker (or anyone else!) can you say more about sealing the end grain?  My experience and knowledge about drying wood is for firewood - logs dry mostly through the ends!  What is the benefit of sealing the ends and do you know the mechanism?

Ill post a picture for you tonight of what happens when the wood dries too fast EVEN with the ends sealed. I had milled then stacked a few walnut logs and the next month was over 90* every day, many times into the hundreds with almost zero humidity. I anchor sealed the ends of the logs, then again after sawing, then a thick coat of latex paint the next week. there are still a few boards that busted right the hell open at the ends.

2 hours ago, Pondhockey said:

Werker (or anyone else!) can you say more about sealing the end grain?  My experience and knowledge about drying wood is for firewood - logs dry mostly through the ends!  What is the benefit of sealing the ends and do you know the mechanism?

Ill post a picture for you tonight of what happens when the wood dries too fast EVEN with the ends sealed. I had milled then stacked a few walnut logs and the next month was over 90* every day, many times into the hundreds with almost zero humidity. I anchor sealed the ends of the logs, then again after sawing, then a thick coat of latex paint the next week. there are still a few boards that busted right the hell open at the ends.